29.08.2025 / þ thorns þ

Episode Fourteen: Rohan Ayinde and Suley

þ thorns þ

This episode is a conversation between Rohan Ayinde and Suley. Together, they examine the convergence of their practices and how speculative fiction, poetry, collectivity, and black holes can function as a lens for understanding and imagining alternative futures.

This episode is a conversation between Rohan Ayinde and Suley, both based in London. Rohan is a part of the first cohort of the Rose Choreographic School, and he's an anadisciplinary artist and poet. Suley is a playwright, painter, lawyer, and a lecturer who uses world building as a radical tool of investigation. They each reflect on what world building signifies within their practices. Together, they examine the convergence of their practices and how speculative fiction, poetry, collectivity, and black holes can function as a lens for understanding and imagining alternative futures.

Find out more about Rohan Ayinde and Suley on our People page.

To the Glossary Rohan donates Horizon of Liberation

This episode, is part of a series of þ thorns þ called Choreographing the Apocalypse. It is curated by Mine Kaplangı and is part of their ongoing research into queer and trans imaginaries of the apocalypses.

Through the series they’re inviting artists, thinkers, and somatic practitioners to explore apocalyptic thinking through speculative, world building and radically intimate frameworks. The project is inspired by Oxana Timofeeva’s idea that apocalypse is not a singular event, but a cyclical and continuous condition.

This series is produced and edited by Hester Cant. The series is curated by Mine Kaplangı with additional concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Transcript:

MARTIN:

Hello and welcome to þ thorns þ, a podcast where we bring you conversations in relation to concepts of the Choreographic. þ thorns þ is produced as part of the Rose Choreographic School at Sadler’s Wells. I'm Martin Hargreaves, Head of the Choreographic School, I've invited Mine Kaplangı to curator series of the podcast, and I'll hand over now to Mine to explain more.

MINE:

Hi, my name is Mine Kaplangı, I'm a Folkestone based curator and art mediator from Istanbul. We have given the series the title Choreographing the Apocalypse, and it's part of my ongoing research into queer and trans imaginaries of the apocalypses. Through the series I’m inviting artists, thinkers, and somatic practitioners to explore apocalyptic thinking through speculative, world building and radically intimate frameworks.

This conversation was recorded in a studio in London, and it was the first meeting between these two artists. They each reflect on what world building signifies within their practices. Articulating how this concept informs their individual research and methodologies. Together, they examine the convergence of their practices and how speculative fiction, poetry, collectivity, and black holes can function as a lens for understanding and imagining alternative futures.

The transition sounds you will hear in this episode are recordings from Rohan and Suley’s practices. There's a full transcript available for this episode on our website, together with any relevant links to the resources mentioned.

SULEY:

I'm a big fan of your work by the way. I have to say.

ROHAN

Thank you.

SULEY:

I did a project with Hadiru, Brother Portrait, years ago.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah!

SULEY:

My first exhibition in London was a mixture of, I invited Brother Portrait to write some poems about the, like, in response to the paintings. And then I saw you at Cipher with him.

ROHAN:

Yeah. It was called Spit. That's amazing. Thank you. Brother Portrait is a good friend and an incredible poet. What was the body of work that he was responding to?

SULEY:

It was my first, like, collection of paintings. So, the show was called B[l]ackground.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm.

SULEY:

The L in like little square brackets.

ROHAN:

Okay.

SULEY:

It was like 2021. And it was a reaction to this idea that my experience of it was, at times, the idea of Blackness can both mean like hypervisibility but also invisibility.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm.

SULEY:

And so, these paintings in which I used kinda like, block acrylic silhouettes. With like figures coming in and out of the background using optical illusions. The poetry was in response to this sense of transition, I guess from like foreground to background at times or Blackground.

ROHAN:

Blackground…And when you speak about figures, are you talking about there were actual people that you were painting, or was it like kind of more abstract figures?

SULEY:

No, no. Figurative.

ROHAN:

Okay.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah. My painting background is not really that focused on abstraction. I've always been more interested in like the representation of things.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SULEY:

And also is not that good at, I think you have to be really good at abstract art to make art that like doesn't just seem like everything else. No shade on the abstract artists.

Suley laughs.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah. No, no. That that's valid. Yeah.

SULEY:

And so yeah, I started with taking photographs of people and then using tracing paper and masking tape. You could like transpose that to a canvas you build up from like silhouettes. And then you like just layer the paintings like that.

ROHAN:

That sounds amazing. And you are a lawyer. And I'm like, that's like lawyer, painter, playwright. There's a breadth of influences then that are coming into how you are approaching your work. How do you straddle those lines? And especially as you talk about world building, which I think is something I'm really fascinated with at the moment in my practice in general. How do all of those things feed into this idea of world building?

SULEY:

Mm-hmm. I got into law in 2015. Like went to study philosophy at Leeds Uni. Graduated and was like, what the hell do I do with a philosophy degree? Apart from like, you know, get high and talk about the stars.

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

We had to pay the rent sadly. So, the idea was to try and figure out how to transition into some sort of career. That security was quite important to me at the time. So, I ended up in a corporate legal space, didn't really like it. And I was seconded to an international office, and I was in that space that I was like, oh, actually trying to make sense of yourself in like a whole new environment encouraged me to really just pick up a pen and a canvas and a paintbrush. And so, the art developed in response to this feeling of kind of otherness and I think in an attempt to building a kind of separate world.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

I then left the corporate space to get into human rights law.And then during that transition I was able to create a lot more. And then decided at that point to try and make a real kind of pivot into the art world. Went to art school back here in London. And I now have a kind of three days a week art law practice. I work in art law, so I support kind of artists and galleries and so there is a kind of convergence of these things.

But I think to your question, I think the idea of world building is, touches upon all of these practices, because you are always trying to tell stories, I guess. Or trying to build systems, in the visual sense or the theatre sense. Right now, you want to build a space in which, when you come into this room, this is all that matters.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SULEY:

And I think touching on the…Is it called black holes? With the video at the end of the…?

ROHAN:

at the British Library?

SULEY:

Yeah.

ROHAN:

Within the Echo. Yeah. But it was all about black holes. Yeah!

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

And I think like, you know, in that space it really did feel like you were part of this. You like, you are able to transport, I guess, into another space. And I think I really try and do that with the play I'm writing, or I've just written, you know? The paintings I make, I think it's a bit harder to try and have something that's so all encompassing. But I think it's the intention. And I think in the legal space, you are also trying to tell a story, or build a world of more equity, I guess, in a way. So like, you know, chipping away at unjust practices. There's a lot of exploitation in the art world. And so, what I try and do with my practice is support creatives from backgrounds similar to mine, and trying, I guess, to like expand the world that I would like to see outwards.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm. So, I think it's fascinating. And to think about this idea of world building that you're situating yourself within, and thinking about in your practice, within also this yeah, the tension of law. Which often is always, also respondent to something that's already been built.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

Right? These very opaque systems that have this depth of history. These kind of water lines, so to speak. That are just built up over time and time again. And in some ways really describe perfectly the issues we face. What is the law?

SULEY:

Yeah, completely.

ROHAN:

Whose law are we responding to? And like, how do we start to build our own laws? Which I suppose then you, when you create worlds-

SULEY:

Yeah! Yeah, completely. Because I think that the idea of like water systems, I think is really interesting, right? Because it does feel at times like almost, I think legal and political systems can feel like…it's like sedimentary rock almost, right?

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Because some of these laws are like 400, 500 years old. That they're just like, leaks are put out here, you know? It's all compounded by interest, which may not align with your values.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SULEY:

And I think that makes the need for world building. There's a lot, I think that can make you feel like you are, both in the legal sense and in the greater sense, like you’re kind of screaming in a vacuum. But then if like, if everyone's doing it, maybe like you can kind of like harmonise.

ROHAN:

Ah, that's it. I love that. I love that. I mean, I'm thinking a lot about harmonising and song and voice at the moment, so just the idea of the scream that might feel like an empty scream, not being empty when you start to imagine that it actually is kind of a note in a larger song.

And yeah, I’m shooting another film this week.

SULEY:

Ah, cool. What is it like, a sequel?

ROHAN:

Ah…No and yes. The scene in the film at the British Library with the five women singing, so the humming scene, which is like conceptually they're on the other side of the event horizon of the black hole, and they are humming together and their hum is replete with the ideas of a Black radical feminist imagination. And that hum is then drawing all of the other characters towards the event horizon. And it was something that we actually spent the most time on, developing of all the scenes that we did. But then on the day, it was the one that actually got cut quite short, just as it related to like set design. There were more moving things than we'd anticipated on the set day.

And so, then when we were conceptualizing for this new project, which is in response to, or in dialogue with bell hooks All About Love. We were thinking like, what's a way to think about it, or a way to think through it. And it's in dialogue with All About Love, but also in dialogue with the current context, the political climate, the silencing that has been happening for artists, specifically across the board as it relates to Palestine and the genocide that's being committed.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

We were thinking about what people are facing, as it relates to not being able to speak out. Or when they do speak out, facing kind of ostracisation. And kind of, exclusion from channels of funding. Or just the whole-

SULEY:

Yeah! Whole creative universe almost.

ROHAN:

And so then it became this rumination on voice and the power of voice. And what does it mean to make a film that very much centres on the importance of us having voices. And feeling able to use our voices in times of like, the direst need. And so, in some way it becomes an extension from that hum scene. So, we once again gathered a group of vocalists, specifically vocalists this time, and thinking about how their voices can hold the strands of all of these current questions. And what we can provide for them to also allow a space for their voices to add to the notes. And hopefully then, from a film perspective, what does it mean to encounter that? And to feel enabled to also add your voice? Add your note to the song or to the void.

SULEY:

Wow. That's a mad metaphor I feel like, for the symbolism of the physical act of using your voice. And also, the symbolism of standing up, like talking. Speaking truth to power kind of thing. Which I think at this time with Palestine and with so many other atrocities that are going on, it can feel that your voice is both powerless, but also the only thing you have.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

And that, the people screaming the loudest can be mistaken for talking for everyone.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Music from Black Holes: Act 1 by Suley.

SULEY:

In the last piece, there was a point about the base note of the universe?

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SULEY:

Could you…?

ROHAN:

Yeah. B flat. So, I did my masters in Chicago. I ended up writing a thesis that was a kind of, a reading of Black radical imagination, or a Black radical politics through the science of the black hole.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

So, I did loads of research on black holes in the process. Most of which I didn't understand. But one of the things that was really resonant for me, was that scientists had been able to record the sound of the universe. Or the kind of this sub note, which is apparently in a tone of a B flat. But like, 57 octaves below middle C. So, like imperceptibly low. But that was the note. And apparently that note is generated as a result of like, the voices of all…of black holes.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm. Interesting.

ROHAN:

That note is generated as like this kind of harmony. Harmony of the sound that black holes eminent on a universal level. And so then, we took that as our point of departure for the sound with Melo-Zed, who was the composer across the whole piece. He kind of used the B flat as a starting point for how he would organise the sound. And then anyone that we had playing, we asked them to kind of start from the B flat the move from. And Nubya Garcia plays the final saxophone piece in that constellation. And it was dope because, both her and actually Kaidi Akinninbi, who's also a sax player who is one of the dreamers, and we told them about the B flat. They were like, ah, that's great, 'cause that is the…that's the natural note of the sax. So, it's kind of these interesting little moments of synchronicity or magic. I like to call them magic.

SULEY:

Well yeah it feels like it. And it goes back to this idea of, maybe not harmony, but like the balance of things almost. There is something which you can have something as chaotic and destructive as a black hole…again, I don’t know much about them, but you know. But then you get enough of them together, and there's a note which can be perceived.

ROHAN:

Perceived, yeah.

SULEY:

Like across the universe. And I think it goes back to your point about like voices as well, right? Maybe individually everyone's got their own particular views, but like there is a way in which collectively there can be some sort of unifying message, I think.

ROHAN:

Hopefully.

SULEY:

Inshallah.

ROHAN:

Talking of black holes though, so your piece?

SULEY:

So, it's just written as a stage play now. I finished it on Sunday.

ROHAN:

Wow, okay.

SULEY:

There's much more to it. So that was Act 1.

ROHAN:

Okay.

SULEY:

Because I made this for an exhibition I had in like February. In which you kind of, enter this small world in Deptford, and the space included fake newspapers of that time. Um, so it's all encompassing.

ROHAN:

So, it’s all the world, of that time. Okay, okay.

SULEY:

Exactly. So it started, kind of this time last year. So, it was the race riots, August 7th. I was on my way to Kew Gardens. There's a lot of violence in colonial history to that place, which we can definitely get into, maybe another time. But it's a nice place to walk around in. I was on my way there. And it was the day that the far-right were descending on London.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm.

SULEY:

They were going to like Finchley and like Walthamstow. And one of the destinations was Brentford, but Brentford is really close to Kew Gardens. My sister was like, don't go to Kew Gardens today, like it's not worth it. I was like, well, you know, I'm from this city, you know? Sun shining. Just got the Tories out. But another friend texted me and was like, look it's not worth it. And there was some footage going around of people being attacked and assaulted. So, as the overground doors were closing, I jumped off and it was just a really strange experience. I went to another open space and there was this weird like, sundown town kind of vibe, where it was, ‘oh, better be in before the far right come into London’.

ROHAN:

Mm.

SULEY:

My sister's office was closed early. Like, emails were going around saying Black people can leave if you don't feel safe. Peckhamplex was closed. I know that sounds kind trivial, but like it was a crazy thing to experience in 2024. And one of the reactions I was like, I'm not doing this again. But then I was like, well actually, if some of these brutes actually had a way to send us home, or get rid of us, like what would they actually do?

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

So, a few years before that, I'd studied critical race theory when I was studying in America, and the founder of Critical Race Theory was a man called Derrick Bell. He wrote a novella called Space Traders. A kind of satirical piece in which aliens come to the US and offer gold and technology for the African Americans. Mad absurd. It's only 13 pages. Uh, and I read that when I was studying and the idea always stuck with me. Because I was like, oh, that's a crazy thought experiment. And then I think, fast forwarding to August of last year, I was like, oh actually, maybe now is the time to try and rethink and rejig this satire for the modern age, or at least for Britain right now.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Yeah so, Black Holes is a story about aliens coming to Kew Gardens and offering the UK vast amounts of gold and new technology, like nuclear fusion technology, in exchange for the Black Brits. So, the far-right government then put a referendum to the people about whether to accept the trades. So, the play follows loads of different vignettes around the nation. You've got a kind of Kemi Badenoch figure who's probably the main character. Ronke, whose narrative or like character arc is probably the most complete. But otherwise, you really just move around. So, you go to the barbershop, you go to restaurants, you go to the office, you have friends having kind of harsh conversations. You've got families contemplating, fleeing. And yeah, I don't want to give too much away. But yeah, finished it on Sunday. So, the idea now is to hopefully bring it to a stage near you sometime.

ROHAN:

I look forward to seeing it in its completeness. Because I certainly kind of left listening to act one being like, ah, this is a great premise. And I was on the train, and it felt so…It was interesting because on the one hand you go like, these are such cartoonish characters, right? Like, especially when you are in the cabinet conversation and you're listening in. And then, like that's my first feeling of like, oh is this really how people are speaking? And then, I sit with where we are at. And the kind of dynamics of how people talk, not only in private, but increasingly in public. And I'm like, no this actually isn't cartoonish. And I think that to your point of like, what does it mean to update that piece? And also to really write characters who maybe at first do seem quite absurd? It's because we are also living in a truly absurdist time. It felt so contextually grounded and rooted. And I think what was interesting for me, specifically about that moment in the cabinet where you meet these different characters who are all saying their various pieces as to why I actually…

SULEY:

Let's get rid of them.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Is on the one hand, you go like, okay these are far-right figures. And on the other hand you go like, no actually this could be our current Labour government. And then you meet Ronke and you go, okay yeah, Kemi. But her character, at least to begin with, there's an important tension and a depth that you give her that I wouldn't necessarily hold open for Kemi Badenoch.

SULEY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROHAN:

So, I'm just interested.

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

No, it's been a tough one, I'm not going to lie! Because it's, yeah, her politics are not like anything that I align with. And it was difficult writing this figure, or this character, and trying to make her as kind of, full as possible. But like on the other side, I don't think that as an artist who is Black, I should be a representative of all Black artists.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm.

SULEY:

Those kinds of rules and expectations just don't apply to white artists or non-Black artists. But then something I grappled with is like, well then hold on, so then does the same work for politicians?

ROHAN:

Mm.

SULEY:

I feel like it's different because I'm not making policies that are affecting and undermining particular communities. Her arc is something which really forms the bedrock of the story. But like the story itself, and the way it sits in critical race theory, is developed or founded on this idea of interest convergence. Which is that progress only happens, or justice only occurs when it's in the interest of the dominant group. In this case being the white, like white majority.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

And the critical race theory argument was like the desegregation of schools only happened...Well you know, it wasn't just as altruistic motive, there were PR considerations, the Cold War and all this kind of stuff. And the second, it's not in the interest of a majority of those in power to make these changes and to promote this kind of justice, it just goes out the window. And like the DEI rollback, you know? The second Trump's like, you know, you can't do it anymore, organisations, tech, law firms, everything, everyone scraps it.

ROHAN:

Drops it, yeah.

SULEY:

And you know, you can see that in the kind of geopolitical space, in the way that, you know, condemnation on Israel for what they're doing in Palestine. It's inconsistent based on, you know, political ties or condemnation of Indigenous land rights. If we need the extraction, we need the resources. And so like, this idea of how far can actually justice be promoted when it's still pegged to serving those always served, is the kind of heart of it. And so, her arc, or like her role in this is that she's the closest to the machine. You know, in the UK there are so many of these politicians and figures, that I think can align with nefarious forces. Which you are sometimes like screaming, like watching tv, just like, why are you saying these kind of things?

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm. From that perspective, it's also important to like hold open the complexity of that kind of relationship to power, when identity gets wrapped up in interest, and whose interest, and at what point do you draw a line? Do you draw a line when there's an alien group who come and say like…

SULEY:

Yeah! Like, does everyone do we all have a price?

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

And also, the dominant group shifts, you know? Whilst I think this as a body of work is highlighting racial differences, what could be taken from this is that, like there's always something. That there's always space that we concede to for something else. Or for someone else.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Chants from a pro-Palestine march. “No justice. No peace.”

ROHAN:

Thinking about world building and kind of, building from this body of work that you just finished writing, one of the things I think about a lot with sci-fi, is that it is often rooted in a disaster politics, right? After the end of the world. Or it's in the universe that is kind of like, the worst version of the universe. And people are trying to figure out how to navigate that. And it's not always the case. You were talking about hope earlier.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

And actually, what I think is the best sci-fi, or the best version of a sci-fi that might build worlds that we might then live in, is one in which the world that is created is not the disaster world, it's actually the best version of the world. But with all of the problems that will still arise, even when we're in the best version of the world, right? Because it's like…

SULEY:

Do you have any examples?

ROHAN:

Yeah, I mean my favourite sci-fi writer is Ursula Le Guin.

SULEY:

I dunno her.

ROHAN:

Oh man. I'm glad I've been able to share that today with you then, man. She’s got a whole body of work to get stuck into!

Suley laughs.

ROHAN:

But she's crafted this universe, the Hainish universe. There's a confederation of planets who are part of the kind of, Hainish universe. And it's a lot about the movement between planets and the conversations that happen as new planets are bought into that confederation. But like, there are different planets at different stages of an awareness that there are other beings in the universe, other than themselves. The worlds that she constructs are quite often really quite incredible. They're queer. They are people of colour within the set. Like they're not dominantly kind of from the imagination, just of whiteness.

SULEY:

Yeah, which happens all the time! I went to see, have you seen 28 Years Later?

ROHAN:

I've not seen it yet. No.

SULEY:

There’s not a single Black zombie!

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

And I'm like, surely some of us survived! It's crazy! And it seems like that kind of, as you say, the lens of the apocalypse through whiteness. There's like, one dark zombie and he's this, I don't want to give too much away, but like, even that feels like a trope.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

SULEY:

And as you say, it's, you know, you don't even realize that even in the apocalypse…

ROHAN:

There's no diversity in the apocalypse, it's crazy! What does it mean to write stories that are on the other side of like, a world that has actually figured things out? But it's still really difficult, you know? It's still, people are still people. People are still figuring out. There’s still greed. There's still jealousy. But we're in a system where those things maybe can be mediated.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that realism element of sci-fi, it just makes it much easier to relate to. You know, I like Black Panther, but like this kind of Wakanda space, it just feel like, well there's such a big difference between this world and that world. Even if I wanna live in that world, I think it's much more powerful when you are maybe able to make art that just has stronger kind of relatability.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

A question to you with your research and practice on black holes.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

What does it mean to focus on something that is known to be, or unknown to be, like the most destructive thing in the known universe? How does that relate to the world building or destruction?

ROHAN:

Well, I think it… Well, it's really interesting. I suppose that when you spend time with anything, it's crazy. I dunno like, someone that spends time with wild lions, they all of a sudden become friends, don't they?

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

I don't frame black holes through the lens of being the most destructive force in the universe. I actually think of them as like, the force in the universe that holds everything together, right? So, at the centre of every galaxy is a super massive black hole. Which is the thing that holds together, gravitationally, all of our systems. So, they are these forces that without Earth would not be in an orbit to the sun in the way there is, if there was not a super massive black hole that was holding all of those pieces together.

To your question, the black holes have actually become liberatory figures within my research. And the way that I think about them within the scope of like, what is Blackness as a politics rather than just an identity position?

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

And what might the black hole offer as a conversation partner. And you brought this point about the unknown of the black hole, what is known and unknown being like the same thing. The reason that black holes felt like this perfect conversation partner with Blackness or Black radical theory, is that black holes are the figure in the equation of general relativity. That when Einstein came up with that theory, which was this new, it was a kind of update on the Newtonian theory of physics, he found this figure in the equation that was impossible.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

Because black holes tend toward infinity. And infinity is not a possible number within physics. But there was this figure, and this needs to be present in this equation for it to work. And it is the most elegant equation. So, it has to be in here. But these things can't possibly exist because they won't work in the known universe. And so, then all the work that comes after it, is people trying to prove that this figure within the equation does exist. And when it finally is proven…it's this fascinating thing of like, okay so the black hole is a figure within general relativity that is necessary for the functioning, but cannot be a part of our understood world because it's so outside of what we have the ability to comprehend. And here we go, and we're talking about Blackness. What is the figure within the equation of modernity that produces the ability for us to exist in the world that we live in? It is the kind of, the genocide of, and the enslavement of African people that leads into this period of modernity. But at the same time, Black people are not considered human. So, they are both the pivotal figure within the equation of modernity as well as being the thing that is exactly always outside of it.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

They don't exist. They're not people. They are the limit of the human. And yet it is our bodies and our histories that are the thing that hold together everything. So, in the same way that the black hole is the figure within general relativity, Blackness is the figure within, oh God, modernity.

SULEY:

Oof God, that is…Wow.

Suley laughs.

SULEY:

Yeah, that's, yeah. I mean, that's so relevant in so many different contexts of Blackness as well, like both in the physical, as you say, like the history and where we sit in this, like in the time that we live in. But also, I think in just the idea of racial descriptor in the first place, right? Like this idea that Blackness as a thing that you could like truly understand and define.And I guess it's race in general, feels like it needs to exist because of the way in which things are structured, but actually on interrogation doesn't exist. Or the closer you get to it, the further it goes. It's kinda like the event horizon.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SULEY:

Um, but then like how do we try and…even knowing that there are still equations that rely on it. In a weird way.

ROHAN:

it goes back to this law point, right? And the sedimentation.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah.

ROHAN:

Like, okay, these are the terms.

SULEY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROHAN:

All right. Well, why? Who? How? And what does it mean to break the terms down? What does it mean to, again, this idea of the black hole. If there's a door, the door of no return, is the door through, which kind of modernity is produced as a literal door, right? Like the physical space? The moment in which Africans were kind of taken from their homeland to make the new world? If there's a door into this, there has to be a door out.

SULEY:

Mm.

ROHAN:

Like you have to believe that.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

Right? Back to the point of hope, what is our doorway out? And like, what are the languages? What is the world building that we need to do to build the doorway out? And for me it was like, oh the black hole, that's the door. Like every other doorway has been exhausted and we're still here. We’ve spoken about the sea, we've spoken about Afrofuturism. All these other kind of methodologies, but we're still here. And I'm like, well no one's looked at the possibility of the Black hole as our exit.

SULEY:

Mm.

ROHAN:

Which then also takes you to all of the theories around black holes as literal wormholes and portals. And like, that might actually lead you to other universes. So, then there's all of that like rich speculative…

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah.

ROHAN:

Imagination space to go into and to get lost in and to use as fuel.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm. Do you like Nikki Giovanni?

ROHAN:

Yeah! I don't know her intimately enough, but I love watching her speak on YouTube. And like, I've got books of her poems that I kind of dip into every now and then.

SULEY:

Well, I got into her work through kind of, researching this play. But also, yeah, I like how she speaks. But I don't know a lot of her kind of, canon. But I've discovered a poem called Quilting the Black-Eyed Pea, about the metaphor of the middle passage. As a space journey. And how this idea of going to Mars and you know, landing in a foreign place with alien food, with like a foreign sun, and how that can only really be understood through the context of, I mean she writes the African American experience, but I guess you can extrapolate that to just Blackness as a whole. But this idea that, you know, even those kind of journeys can potentially only be survived, understood with the experience of contemporary Blackness.

ROHAN:

Mm-hmm.

SULEY:

And so, there's almost like this, don't wanna give too much away about how the play ends, but like this idea of like, if black holes are this door that we could maybe explore, you know, liberation through. Who goes there? And how do we go there? And who has the, not the right to go there, but like, what would it mean if that, if that is our door? And then that goes into like, you know, you're not building worlds, you're building universes at that point.

ROHAN:

Which is what we need to do, right? Like that then is a whole new starting point.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Music from Black Holes: Act 1 by Suley.

ROHAN:

That was one of the questions I had for you was like, why? Why Black Holes?

SULEY:

So, the original novella is Space Traders. The lawyer in me was like, don't want to get sued. So, I was like, also trying to make sure you know this, which is this revision and re-imagining of it is drastically different to the inspiration. But I was trying to think of a phrase or collection of words that both spoke to the intergalactic nature of this story. But also thinking of the social fabric which felt pretty frayed last year. And did like the idea of these holes if we were all traded. There would be all of these black holes, both physically and in the workplace and the family. But the actual country would be riddled with black holes. But then we get in also into the kind of sci-fi element of black holes.

ROHAN:

Ah, okay. That's cool. I get that. I love that, that play on you get to go out there with it, but it's also very much about bodies, people. People know.

SULEY:

Yeah! The individual relationships. Last year it felt so bizarre that like, you could be sat next to your colleague and the whole office gets an email saying, if you don't feel safe, you can leave early today.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Like, what does that mean for that relationship that you have with your white colleague? Who then, you’re both in the office the next day, and everyone's talking about Love Island? And you are kind of like… This didn't actually happen to me, but I'm assuming it happened in some places.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SULEY:

Where you're just like, do you not know what happened yesterday? Like, how does this relationship, if I leave early, there's a little black hole in my chair. And maybe other people are aware of what's going on in the country. I know a lot of people who weren't, you know? If you weren't looking at that footage, you thought it was all in Southport.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Or you know, there were… the rioters were attacking particular people. And so, I think that kind of, as you say the actual relationship to it, like the interpersonal stuff, I think is what is a big part of, as you say, like the sedimentary kind of buildup of these practices. It starts in law and starts in politics, but then it's almost maintained person to person. But that's, I guess, where we could like try and rupture it. I don’t know.

ROHAN:

Hey, the rupture. I'm glad you brought that word up because as you were talking, one of the things I was thinking about is in the film that me and Tayo made last year, the word rupture was key.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm. Why?

ROHAN:

I think again, because like if we're talking about making new worlds or imagining new worlds, you have to find openings that even allow you to like begin to do that work. Where is the opening? Where is the crack? Where is the rupture that provides the grounds to begin to plant different seeds? And this idea of rupture in order to make new things is really important. And also, as you were talking, I was also thinking about how to…you're talking about relationality and like, the relationships also that are impacted or influenced by all of these conversations. And certainly, in the last few years, like my practice has been completely rooted in relationship. Here we are talking, but in a way I kind of feel like I need to have YoYo and Tayo next to me. Both of whom have, over the last few years in our work, it’s always been about the conversation.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

It's always about how the idea is built and expanded and offered more richness as a result of like what we are talking about. So, as in Tayo and I, we're talking about film, we're talking about building these worlds through film, we're bouncing, we're steepling. And similarly, with YoYo and I, with talking about performance, but also just about a shared kind of study practice. It's like ideas flow and move, and you start here, and you end up kind of million miles away. But then you come back and you're in this flow that then there's a constant feeding that happens. There's an orbiting of one another. So again, to use the metaphor of the black hole. What does it mean also to produce a black hole, not as a destructive force, but as something productive between you or others that, that then you go, okay what is all the information in this black hole that then pulls us, whoever the US is, into an orbit?

SULEY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROHAN:

That we might then find the world that that black hole utters back to us.

SULEY:

Yeah. Like an idea can be so dense with information that it can suck you in.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Yeah. And you know it when you feel it. Like, when you know you are…you are part of a collective or like you're just talking with friends and like something clicks, and you can see that kind of the energy, kind of like pulling you into this… Spiral has a negative sense to it, but like, you know, like you're pulling you in on this imagination.

ROHAN:

I just saw your eyes light up because it's like, you know it, innit? You know? And it happens. You're like, yeah, we are here. And now we can go somewhere.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Chants from a pro-Palestine march. “What do we want? Justice! When do we want it? Now!.”

SULEY:

What's your practice? Or like your…you said that your practice at the moment is more based on…

ROHAN:

Collaboration and relationships? Yeah, I feel like a lot of the things I'm spending the most time thinking about coming out of, yeah, collaborative ideas. But there's a project that I've been thinking about recently that is situated maybe as more of an individual project. But definitely wouldn't have come into being if it weren't for conversations had at the Rose Choreographic School, actually. Like some of these things you're just being fed. So, I just find myself…you learn this? Don't you? Learn over time what your process is.

SULEY:

Mm.

ROHAN:

So, I think lots of artists do work like this. Of like, you have to sit in your space in isolation and you kind of, come to-

SULEY:

Channel this spirit! Yeah!

ROHAN:

And it comes to you, and you’re like, ah this is genius, which I think is beautiful. And there are definitely moments where I've been in that. Where it's like, I feel something or I hear something and like, I have to dance a little bit because it's like, it's exciting. But so many of the ideas that do emerge are as a result of like sustained, imaginative, intellectual, feelingful conversations with people that are sharing ideas, that are sharing references. And then all of a sudden it's like, ah that really connects to that thing I've been thinking about that I actually didn't know how to bring into life. I just tried to listen to those as much as possible. I write down a lot of ideas, that have never been made, that maybe will be made one day, or maybe I'll just release them as like a score of ideas that someone else can make at some point.

SULEY:

Yeah! Like you are the spark.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can be the black hole!

SULEY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROHAN:

And maybe why I love working in collaboration is because actually, they become real when someone else says, oh yeah. Like Tayo with the film, I'd written this thesis on black holes and we were trying to make this film, and I didn't want to bring in my research because I didn't want to make it my film. I wanted to allow it to be something that naturally grew between us. And then at some point I've been, something he'd said was like, oh well you know, and he's like, bro why have you been like, not sharing all of this research?

SULEY:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it up!

ROHAN:

This, this is what it is! It’s the black hole! Let's go there. And so, I think, yeah. We, I find myself pulled toward my work through dialogue, through love, through friendship, through intimacy.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel in that way, the kind of the process is the sustaining factor, and less the actual like…You know, obviously there are different stops along the way, where things are produced or created, but actually it's this kind of, the endeavour of like talking a lot and making things, right at the heart of it.

ROHAN:

Yeah. And it's great. It's great. It's strengthened my friendships. Um. Like, the people I make work with, are my closest friends. The people I talk about things with, whether it be work or life, are my closest friends. So, it's a reminder to, to share, to show up. To imagine with people in a world that is so hell bent on, like refusing us our capacity to imagine other than what is.

SULEY:

A question to you is how do you think these worlds, that so many of us are making, that all have the same intention, can be bridged to harmonize? Because I think the worlds are getting bigger. But I think, I just wonder how, if any, they can be like maximized without there being some sort of massive WhatsApp group. I mean, maybe that's the answer.

ROHAN:

I mean, there's nothing wrong with a massive WhatsApp group. But I would definitely archive it. But no, I'm interested to hear what you think of what I'll say here, but I think there is unfortunately and has been historically, like a crabs in a bucket mentality around certain ideas. Just around like, as you work in law and art and so you know, it is the one thing to make the art, and then it's like, what are the economics of sustaining an arts practice?

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

There's a moment in say, the eighties, right? Where you have, and I know we're not even just talking about Black artists, it's that artists across the board are imagining and dreaming worlds, whether Black or not. But there's a moment of like deep collectivity within the arts practice landscape that happens, I think in like the eighties, and you see some incredible collective energies coming out of that space. Again, coming back to this question of structures, preexisting structures that don't yet exist. I feel like we need to collectively, if possible, dream up structures that undermine the singularity of the artist who needs to apply for the funding to get the project to be able to do the work. And so then, it actually creates a gap between you and I. Because now we got the same idea.

SULEY:

Mm.

ROHAN:

And I don't wanna even know about your idea because I don't wanna be influenced by that. Or maybe then now your competition. Because we are both applying for ACE funding.

Suley laughs.

SULEY:

Aren’t we all? Yeah.

ROHAN:

You know what I mean? If you get it, I'm not gonna get it because we're both thinking about the same thing. And so, I like this…we have to think about what is the sustained…Like actually, we're making work to make another world. It's got nothing to do with getting the money to make the work. It's got to do with us, these ideas coming together, these bridges being formed so that the harmony is reached, rather than us just all kind of, screaming in our notes in different ways. No answer there to your question, but there is an analysis of some of what's happening, and why those bridges don't necessarily get formed. And I dunno what your take is on that thought. Or whether there's even more depth to what I've proposed in your mind.

SULEY:

I definitely agree that the economics of it, definitely pits, either like consciously or inadvertently, creatives against each other. Even when like, they're united in what they're trying to do and how they're trying to do it. And it feels like the goal is that the triangle is like flipped almost. Or maybe it's just a square. I guess the triangle just like opened up and I think it kind of, it is a wider condemnation of the system in general that we're in. In terms of exploitation of kind of, this idea that just capitalism, and what it is at this moment in time. My initial reaction was like, you just need…or just need…a space in which people can…if we just had access to a pot of funding, so we don't have to apply for ACE funding.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Does that solve it? Because I guess it would mean that we don't pit against each other for this thing. But then like how do I get that money? Like say to someone, someone works really hard in banking and then like opens a gallery. Like is that a solution? Or, how do we actually start to like interrogate, and like chip away at some of these deep, deep rocks, whilst also trying to remain hopeful?

Suley laughs.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

And I think, uh, maybe just like sharing?

ROHAN:

Sharing? More spaces for sharing? Yeah.

SULEY:

Yeah!

ROHAN:

More spaces for sharing, more spaces for like, critique. But that sort of ‘time and space’…Being part of the Rose Choreographic School has really reminded me, and like anytime you go to a space where there is like this moment when you're in school and you're studying, it's like you have that, right? It's like it's built in. It's like, all of a sudden you can breathe. No. There are some of us that can and there's some of us who have to have full-time jobs to maintain that. So, there's even a level of privilege there, depending on how you enter those spaces. But the point is, is that there is a kind of, there is a centre around which a group of people orbit and can see each other and can hear each other and can kind of relate. And that's where the bridges are built.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah.

ROHAN:

Maybe it's just not possible. At large.

SULEY:

Yeah.

ROHAN:

You know? Maybe it’s always about these smaller constellations-

SULEY:

That make up the galaxies!

ROHAN:

And then figuring out ways that…Yeah!

SULEY:

Because, yeah, I was gonna say the worlds are being bridged, right? Like it's not, obviously it'd be great if like everyone is connected. That's the ultimate dream. There is a lot of cross pollination of like, spaces that in, like spaces like this. Physical spaces, club nights. There is a lot in which people are kind of pulled in, maybe through the love of one thing that then introduces them to something else. I guess it can just feel sometimes that it could be more connected, but I actually dunno if that's like a wider critique on living in this time as opposed to the artistic experience.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SULEY:

Because you go to, say like, a protest. And you are like, you know, you're screaming at your laptop most of the time, let's say, you're talking to friends. Then you are suddenly in a massive, of a hundred thousand people, and you're like, oh I'm not alone here. And I sometimes think it'd be nice if like, you know, there were loads of artists like that. Like, you know, it's a hundred thousand artists. But actually, that seems like unnecessary, like intense.

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

But like say you can go to, you can go to, say, a night, like a Touching Bass carnival party, right?

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

I feel like there was something which brought everyone together in a way, which you know, unites them. Because they want to enjoy a nice atmosphere. They wanna listen to nice music, eat some nice foods. And I feel like it's those things that…

ROHAN:

Those are the bridges.

SULEY:

Yeah.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Or like, the reverberate outwards. And as you say, like form different, like pockets of a constellation.

ROHAN:

For sure. And yeah, I think it's actually important to situate ourselves in the positivity of that. Even while we kind of, have an analysis for the ways in which like wider systems don't support being able to be sustainable in many ways. But yeah, there are spaces, there are people, there are communities that are constantly thinking about what it means to bring people together. What that bringing together feels like, and what the texture of it is, and how it begins to offer different ways of thinking about how to live.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

And that's it, right? That's where we're at. When we're talking about world building, like what does it mean to reimagine how we live and to do so in a way that spawns new universes.

SULEY:

It's like one step at a time, I guess.

ROHAN:

Yeah. And we are here. We are making the world. We are making the new world one conversation at a time. It can feel impossible, and it can feel like you don't have the power, but we just built a bridge. You know? And we've been in orbit clearly. We probably shared a move across the dance floor without realizing that we were both moving to the same cadence. So, it's like these things then reverberate. And here we are sitting here today, and I think it's the magic. Hope.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Music from Black Holes: Act 1 by Suley.

SULEY:

Can you bring in real world action, into the creative world you've made? Or vice versa. Can you make the creative world, kind of manifest into real world action?

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

Which I think is like the hope. So, I guess the question for you is like, what are your…what's the intention of the new work?

ROHAN:

The new work? The intention is for people to step into the work and to feel something. To feel able to raise their voices. To feel like, the sense of like a silence being lifted, and to hopefully then, that lead to like a ripple where they engage with what is possible with their voices. But you know, I know that that isn't always possible. And so, I think also we are thinking about what it means to feel inspired by other people kind of making a point or using their voices. And even if that doesn't immediately translate to then everybody that sees it, being like, okay I need to go out and use my voice. It at least begins to remind people the importance of their individual voices, as collective, as a note to join a harmony of other voices who have something important to say and have something important to imagine. Both separate from everything, but also in relation to, or in response to, or in challenge to everything that is happening. And I think we, you know, in an ideal world, people walk into this space. Because we're thinking about it as an installation, it will be a single channel as well.

SULEY:

Okay.

ROHAN:

But we want it to be an installation where you're, kind of, surrounded by sound and voice and image. And like, what does it mean for people to step into that space and feel compelled to sound as well? To sing or to speak, to cry, you know? Because it's also about this relationship between grief and love. Fundamentally, we want to really draw this connection between grief and love.

So, one of the people that's involved in making the film with us is Camille Sapara Barton. And they've written a book called Tending Grief. And part of that is, it's about grief practices and how to work through grief as a mode for, then like allowing yourself the space to even show up in love. And so, I think we're also there. We're like, well especially when you think about this collective grief that so many of us are kind of faced with. As it relates to, on the one hand, definitely kind of, most pressingly, or at least most visibly, what's happening in Palestine. But there are so many other kind of like, grief-full things that are the resonances of, or the accumulations of, the kind of colonial capitalist mindset that is extractive, and is like hell bent on like yeah, the oppressing others in order for the benefit of some.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

How do you remind people that it's necessary to work through that grief, in order to even begin practicing love? And so, it's a lofty goal for a piece of work.

SULEY:

Yeah. Yeah. As all goals should be though.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah. What are you looking at in the corners of our experiences, that you can kind of draw out, and kind of magnify? But also, these textures that when put together, tell us something that otherwise you might not see, or you might not look back at. And so, I think in that way, the poetry is always a fundamental centre. Because it becomes just a way of seeing.

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

It's not just about a form, or not just about a medium, but it's a way of seeing and engaging with the world. I see the things in the corner of this room that become possible fuel for what I might want to say about something outside of this room. But like, there's this constant relationship between the smaller things that go unnoticed. And so then that informs all of the work in one way or another.

SULEY:

Yeah. Like, as poetry is practice.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Chants from a pro-Palestinian march “Hey, hey! Ho, ho! These racist laws have got to go!”

ROHAN:

You kind of said this is the first screenplay that you've written?

SULEY:

Mm-hmm.

ROHAN:

So like, how has…how have you come to writing as a practice? Is that something that you are already doing in one way or another, and this is just the first of this kind? Or is this like, this is a new venture?

SULEY:

I went to Brazil in 2014. I just got the contract that meant I was gonna train as a lawyer when I came back. I'd had this idea of a story, or a book, that I'd had like percolating for a while. And I think at that point I was like, okay I either write this now, or I become that person who had an idea, then became a corporate lawyer. Of which there were like, no shade on corporate lawyers out here, but a lot of people fall into it, and then like before you know it, you are in Balham, kind of vibe.

Rohan laughs.

SULEY:

No shade on Balham as well. Sorry but… And so, I think that was like a real driver of like, okay, I need to kind of like get this done now. And I think that inadvertently like, kind of set the tools and the practice of like, you know, okay wake up early, do the character studies and things like that.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

And so, I wrote this in like 2017. Tried to send it out. Didn't get kind of that far, but I think it was still the very first artistic project that I really completed. And so, I've actually probably always been a writer, but like the use of words and how they can be used to convey a story and build, well, I guess has always been part of this practice. So, it’s kind of felt nice coming back to it. My physical work is also quite labour intensive, I think, in that way. I think like, I make work with the legal brain of like, neurosis and stress at times. When I finished the project for the exhibition in March, which included me building this like sonic sculpture, kind of built the aliens device that's found In Kew Gardens.

ROHAN:

Okay.

SULEY:

Which nearly broke me. And so, when I was like, oh I could write a script now and just like live in my little playwright era, going to coffee shops on my laptop, I was like, yeah! And I think I've quite enjoyed that break from the actual like, physical making. But I think it's always gonna be part of my practice. And I think once this project is done, I'd like to go back into exploring physical and visual work again. That was the kind of bridge between this body of work and the script, right? So, when you go into the space, every 40 minutes, the box plays the audio that you heard. So, there was this invitation to which I think a lot of people weren't ready for, because you're not expecting to come and sit down for like 40 minutes and listen to a radio drama.

ROHAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SULEY:

But it was after that, that I was like, oh actually people were like, you know, what comes next? And I was like, oh okay, I will figure that out and let you know.

ROHAN:

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think now that you've finished the play, on the one hand…like is it that you want it to live on a stage as a play? Or will it live now as an expanded exhibition where you get to find ways to sit in and with?

SULEY:

Mm, yeah. That's what I've been trying to figure out. I think in the first instance I want it to be, you know, at least a play.

ROHAN:

Yeah.

SULEY:

But this idea of trying to draw the viewer into the story as much as possible. So, maybe as an audience member, you vote on the trade. Or some people are able…you know, trying to make it a bit more immersive. So, you know, maybe audience members become certain characters without traumatizing too many people. Or also trying to understand the limits of theatre. But as a visual artist, I do think that I would like it to also exist in as expansive a universe as possible. Yeah, and I guess that's like going back to what we've been talking about of like, how big can you make the world? How could you potentially make this so it can exist, or influence, or touch as many people as possible? Which I think like film, TV, sound, wavelengths and frequencies, base notes, it's like how do you reverberate it as much as possible? I think is the goal.

ROHAN:

That's amazing.

MARTIN:

Thank you, Rohan and Suley, for this conversation. For the transcript of this episode and for resources mentioned in the conversation, go to rosechoreographic school.com/podcast. The link for this page will also be in the podcast episode description, wherever you're listening right now.

As part of the ongoing imagination of the school, we are compiling a glossary of words that artists are using to refer to the choreographic. Every time we invite people to collaborate with us, we also invite them to donate to the glossary and it's hosted on our website.

If you'd like to get in touch with us, email us on info@rosechoreographicschool.com. This podcast series is a Rose Choreographic School production. The series is produced and edited by Hester Cant, curated by Mine Kaplangı with concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Thank you for listening.

Goodbye.

Bibliography:

People:

Albert Einstein

Brother Portrait

Camille Sapara Barton

Kaidi Akinninbi

Kemi Badenoch

Melo-Zed

Isaac Newton

Nikki Giovanni