29.10.2025 / þ thorns þ

Episode Fifteen: Tosh Basco and Wu Tsang

þ thorns þ

This episode is a conversation between Tosh Basco and Wu Tsang. Together, they discuss their collaboration, emphasising relationality and care in times of crisis. They reflect on their various works, exploring life, death, and rebirth, touching on the impact of capitalism, societal collapse, the fluidity of identity and memory.

This episode is a conversation between artists, Wu Tsang and Tosh Basco. Wu is an award-winning filmmaker and performance artist whose works explore hidden histories, marginalized narratives, and the act of performing itself. Tosh is a multidisciplinary performance artist and photographer whose work enfolds language, becoming and representation together within spaces where these are typically understood as discreet entities. In this episode, Wu and Tosh discuss their collaboration, emphasising relationality and care in times of crisis. They reflect on their various works, exploring life, death, and rebirth, touching on the impact of capitalism, societal collapse, the fluidity of identity and memory.

Find out more about Tosh and Wu on our People page.

To the Glossary Tosh donates Improvisation

This episode, is part of a series of thorns called Choreographing the Apocalypse. It is curated by Mine Kaplangı and is part of their ongoing research into queer and trans imaginaries of the apocalypses.

Through the series they’re inviting artists, thinkers, and somatic practitioners to explore apocalyptic thinking through speculative, world building and radically intimate frameworks. The project is inspired by Oxana Timofeeva’s idea that apocalypse is not a singular event, but a cyclical and continuous condition.

This series is produced and edited by Hester Cant. The series is curated by Mine Kaplangı with additional concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Transcript:

Martin:

Hello and welcome to Thorns, a podcast where we bring you conversations in relation to concepts of the choreographic . Thorns is produced as part of the Rose Choreographic School at Sadlers Wells. I'm Martin Hargreaves, Head of the Choreographic School. I've invited Mine Kaplangi to curate a series of the podcast, and I'll hand over now to Mine to explain more.

Mine:

Hi, my name is Mine Kaplangi. I'm a Folkestone-based curator and art mediator from Istanbul. We have given the series the title, Choreographing the Apocalypse, and it's part of my ongoing research into queer and trans imaginaries of the apocalypses. Through the series, I'm inviting artists, thinkers, and somatic practitioners to explore apocalyptic thinking through speculative, world building and radically intimate frameworks.

In this episode, Wu and Tosh discuss their collaboration, emphasising relationality and care in times of crisis. They reflect on their various works, exploring life, death, and rebirth, touching on the impact of capitalism, societal collapse, the fluidity of identity and memory.

This conversation was recorded in a studio in London. The transition sounds you'll hear in this episode are recordings from their joint work, Carmen in the Clouds, which is a sonic experience by Wu Tsang in collaboration with Enrique Fuenteblanca, and the Moved by the Motion Performance Collective. There's a full transcript available for this episode on our website together with any relevant links to the resources mentioned.

WU:

I think the theme of Apocalypse is a hard one to talk about 'cause it brings up a lot of heavy stuff. But I would say that I have done quite a lot of thinking about this topic. And what it brings to mind for me is a book that a friend of ours recently published called Love in a Fucked Up World. It's actually like a relationship self-help book. Dean is a lawyer and an activist, a trans activist, and it's really written for queer people. For people who exist in the multiverse of intimacies and who are very committed to social justice. It's kind of like how to navigate relationships and conflict in the times that we live in. He also does this other series that I've followed about societal collapse. It's a reparative reading of Jem Bendell's Breaking Togetherand some other books, Octavia Butler and other things. And it's like one of the things that comes up for me with apocalypse is grief and mourning. And so, there's a lot of like emotion that feels, almost like, the primary responsibility is to just try to process what's happening. But I think a secondary thing is to think, well, okay, if this is actually what's happening, and there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop it, then how do we want to spend the time that we have? And I think my answer to that is being in relation to each other. Like being…really focusing on having quality, meaningful care. Full of care relationships. And that to me is what Moved by the Motion is as a collaboration. It's about being in relation to each other and having a sort of ongoing practice and art or performance art or dance or music. Like these are just forms that are almost like containers for us to practice that relationality. Yeah. So that's what I'm doing to try to survive the apocalypse!

TOSH:

The word apocalypse really evokes some kind of end to something. It's not necessarily just the end of capitalism, or something within capitalism, but I think it does really evoke some sort of ending of something. Or that there's the end of the world actually. Right? But I guess like for me, endings are kind of more about transformation of time. About change. And about possibility for new beginnings. And I think that's actually like, quite relevant to the way that we've worked.

WU:

And even your practice, I think, as a performer.

TOSH:

Yeah, totally. I mean, I'm so deeply rooted in improvisation . And I really see my performance not as like singular performances or instances on stage, but really like my lifelong commitment to learning the practice of performance through collaboration. But also, I mean performance for me is so deeply entangled with the audience. The people who show up. The people who come together to help make it, like, no singular person can create everything by themselves. And yeah, I really think like, about the apocalypse, is maybe this fear of something that's not an ending that's like…it actually feels very deeply rooted to capitalism, to me. In linear time. And the ways in which I grew up in California, the Western world teach that like, life is bookended by birth and death. And I don't even need to get into like the philosophical or spiritual belief systems around what happens before or after we enter our bodies in this life. But like, even on a material level, like what happens to the matter of our bodies, and the way in which atoms continually circulate into new forms. And so, when I think about this thing apocalypse, like what is it signifying? What's being changed? What's being transformed? Where will the energy and the matter go? Like what new life will be conjured and what can be imagined in that space of not knowing?

WU:

Mm-hmm. Actually, like hearing you talk about it now, I'm realising that these sort of themes, of like, before and after life and death, it's like kind of a really strong theme in a lot of our projects. Because when we, I mean I guess we could talk more about what Moved by the Motion is, but even just in terms of like, recent live productions that we've done, we've explored a lot, this theme. Like when we started with Orpheus, there was like an obvious journey to an afterlife in the story, but also a series of stories around what happens after death. Moby Dick is one, because in our version, in our adaptation, we kind of follow the character of Pip after everyone's supposedly drowns. And we go to like, some other cosmos where Pip has a rebirth as another character. But also, like even in Pinocchio, we have introduced in our adaptation, like this theme about Pinocchio beginning as a tree. So, before he's like carved into a puppet, he actually has a previous life and knowledge and connection to nature. And there's kind of a cycle of life in our story. And also, in Carmen, because Carmen is the most recent one that we did.

And you play some of these main characters actually. Because you were Queequeg in Moby Dick, and also Pinocchio, and also one of the Carmens. Or you were ‘dead Carmen’ actually?

They both laugh.

WU:

Do you wanna talk about how you embody these kinds of characters that like transcend lifespan?

TOSH:

Yeah, absolutely. And actually, it's making me think about… So for context, Wu, you're referring to different pieces that we performed in repertoire at the house in Zurich, where we held residence for the last six years. And coming from maybe more of a performance or visual art background, it was really interesting to make work in one place, on a specific kind of stage. The institution of that form really lent itself to us exploring more myth-based and narrative-based kinds of performances. And it just occurred to me when you were talking about it, that even this way of presenting work, like myth for example, what happens after the character dies and the way that it's repeated through story?

WU:

Mm-hmm.

TOSH:

The way that it's evoked on stage, or on screen, through conversations or something. And I think as a performer, that's something that like I constantly think about is the ways in which, I guess, because I've been performing now for like maybe 10 or 15 years. That I encounter people who saw me perform 10 or maybe 15 years ago even. And the ways that they hold that memory with them, it's alive in them through memory.

WU:

Hmm.

TOSH:

In these different pieces, I've had the opportunity to explore, definitely the embodiment of a ghostliness. Or life that's not maybe how it's thought of, like scientifically. Or I would even say, it really feels like in the Western world because of this kind of disconnect to spirituality, or something. That I guess, I have a much more open relationship to. I think also because of where I started in performance as a drag queen for the first years. I performed several times a week and every time there was an evocation of a new aspect of myself, or of my character, or of my performance persona or something. And in that you're, yeah, there's constant like, rebirth. There's nothing fixed about it. I think the lifelong practice will be this like overarching shape of something.

WU:

Hmm.

TOSH:

But I am quite interested and maybe drawn to inhabiting the spaces that are focused on, or encircling this idea of death. I'm thinking actually to our work before we entered the Schauspielhaus and living in the United States. Thinking about the ways in which as a trans person of colour, and being in communities of disenfranchised people, the ways in which we are exposed to violence, predominantly by the state, but also just by other people. And also, as an American, the ways in which death is like sometimes, and often very violently imposed upon certain people and communities. I think at the time it, and still, it's really predominantly like, Black people. But also, trans people. And now it's non-citizens. It's so many different kinds of people. And going back to this thing that you're talking about around care, it really came from this understanding that I needed to, in order for me to understand the ways in which I was encountering certain violences, both structural or systemic, or literal physical violences, I also really needed to understand the way in which it functioned against all the people around me.

Yeah, I think there's also this kind of fear of death. I really wonder about what it means to like jump into and embody that unknown space. Because death also kind of symbolises for me this like, unknown.

WU:

Mm-hmm.

TOSH:

It's not something that, I mean, some people speak about their near-death experiences or even being not alive, like their heart's not beating for several minutes or something like this. But otherwise, it's really something that's like very difficult for us to like, fully know in these, in quotation marks, like empirical ways.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Recordings from Carmen in the Clouds.

WU:

I guess somehow, because you mentioned like thinking about the work that we were doing before we moved to Zurich and did the theatre-like format. And now we're leaving that place, and we're sort of starting again on a new series of works. And we're actually starting with like, this idea of the composition series. The performance that we're doing here in London in October. And I was wondering if like some of these themes that you were just talking about, if they feel present for you? Because I do recall before we started doing like repertory and like storytelling , we were kind of really rooted in like poetry, a lot of poetry, especially with like our collaborator, Fred Moten. And like, a lot of these themes kind of come up, but they're not like character based. They're also not tied to like time in the same way. And they're actually a lot to do, thematically, with time as a like recurrent thing, or as something that has memory, you know? All these others, they're more abstract, so maybe they're like, I don't know how people connect to them necessarily. But, I do feel like somehow, when we're building these compositions, that's like, those are things we're trying to like evoke for the audience.

I was gonna ask, how would you describe, Moved by the Motion? Because it's actually something that I always sort of struggle with. Like…what?

Wu laughs.

TOSH:

Right, right, right, right, right. I mean initially it was you and I. It was our desire to bridge the space between our two creative languages. So, your language as a director and filmmaker, I mean your practice is so much more expansive than that, but I think you approached me initially to collaborate together on a kind of, documentary-style film that followed a performer. And at the time I was just learning about my own language as a performer and my practice. And our first performance was called Moved by the Motion, and the performance was kind of bridging the space between language and my dance, or my movements.

Yeah actually, I keep returning to this first thing you said about relationships and about care. And it was a very formative moment for me because I think that there was something that caught fire in me when I began to perform. It really touched something in me that had never seen the light of day, and similarly, this opportunity to collaborate really nurtured that fire. It like watered the seeds of it, I would say and allowed it to grow. Because there were things that I was following intuitively for myself in my practice, but there was so much growth and play that I couldn't have ever imagined doing by myself, and learning actually, and vulnerability. And I would say that Moved by the Motion is now a more mature and complex version of that. It really comes from our desire to make work together, with other people that we feel kindred with, that we love, that we respect, that we admire the desire to learn and grow from those people, and to make things together to share with others.

WU:

I like your definition.

They laugh together.

TOSH:

This conversation around death actually makes me think so much about Moved by the Motion. And what it is that we do with our time here. And how we engage with the world, but also others. And not just the world, but like Earth or something. Or the things around us. How we're connected and how we touch people and spaces and what the impact is, or something. And that to me is that like, the magical essence of performance. It's this kind of like, ephemeral space. And I think also connected to the early performances, we were thinking a lot in tandem with Fred about a quantum world, or something. About the things that exist that we might not so easily see or touch or feel. But the ways in which we do have very physical impacts or ramifications.

I always say that no performance is ever the same because even if it's the same piece, there's going to be a whole different set of audiences. The things that people experience that day, what's happening in the world politically or locally. Every day is different. And I think it's impossible for me to perform without finding some sort of connection to the audience. And somehow that mood is always impacting like, how I want to engage, how I want to say something. How…you know…Because if I want to perform absence, for example, depending on like the mood that I feel from the performance, I might physically remove myself from the stage, or I might just turn away, or I might go away and come back. There's so many ways in which you can say the same thing. To take it back to choreography, that really is like changed by the people watching you, or something.

WU:

Mm-hmm. It's also making me think about when we perform, especially with Josh Johnson, when the two of you dance together, or even if I'm there, it's like I'm thinking about how it's like a physics experiment. Like it's like, the spooky actions at a distance. The idea of like, the separated but entangled particles that, that's the image I always have when you guys are dancing. And it's reminding me, like in when we performed recently in the mountains in Switzerland at the CL house, it was like this little theatre in the Swiss Alps, like on the top of the mountain in the snow. And like in the middle of the performance, Josh jumped out the door of the theatre and went in the snow.

Tosh laughs.

WU:

And like, I was reading a text, and I don't remember what I was reading, I just remember that whatever the thing that I was reading, he somehow came around the outside and entered from another part of the theatre, and he like did something with you, like perfectly in sync. And it was a full embodiment of the concept that I was trying to share. And I feel like that sort of thing happens all the time between us. Because that just comes from the constant improv, like the constant communication. It's like simultaneous entanglement or something.

TOSH:

Yeah.

WU:

And sometimes you can also have that with people you've never worked with before. Doesn't actually mean that you have to physically spend time. It just might be that you're like tuning in. Because, yeah, our collaborator, Fred, is always talking about the band. That's like another way I've talked about Moved by the Motion, as a band. But not like a music band, but more like the idea of like a tribe or some kind of grouping. That's like sometimes when we're talking, he'll be like, oh, you haven't met this person but they're also in the band. And it's like the idea that we might be like duetting, but we're just like, not in the same place at the same time. But it's like an invocation of that.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Recordings from Carmen in the Clouds.

TOSH:

I think the thing about the band that's like really helpful, is like the idea of playing, the idea of like musicality. And then especially with Fred, and the way that he plays in his other band, which is the same band but other people that we have not played with yet, but there's like improvisational play. And I think the play and the musicality of the band, is really important also to choreography, because of the ways in which I learned to dance. I'm not classically trained or something. I'm not formally trained even, but I feel like I actually learned how to dance from my favourite DJs and producers. Bobby Beethoven, Ashland Mines, and Guzo, you know, Asma Maroof, who spent also the last six years with us at the Schauspielhaus. So many people, their abilities to extract or remix musical histories, and into their mixes, or into their DJ sessions, informed me so deeply about cadence and weight and timing and space. And I think to even take that further, we keep talking about the things, or I do at least because my world is really wrapped up in like what is not seen, but I think if you think about waves, sound waves, they're not seen but felt. If you think about the music and how it informs movement, I also think about the ways in which performance or movement can kind of have a rippling effect to audiences.

And when we make performances, I mean even the show that you just made, separate from Moved by the Motion, but this like Theatre Picasso. Thinking about performativity or theatricality of how people move, and how people see artwork, or an artist and the different kinds of spatial or architectural interventions that can maybe, sometimes it creates quite a bit of friction, but like really pivot someone's way of seeing.

WU:

Mm-hmm. It's so interesting, that's making me think about the first time we did our compositions in Zurich at the Schauspielhaus. Because the intendants, they wanted us to do our like fluid practice as a theatre piece. And so, they wanted to invite the audience to our studio. And I just remember like there was so much discussion, like all these technical meetings about it, and I just was so confused, like what all the planning was needed for? And I now, six years later, totally understand what the planning is needed for. So, I actually, this is not to say planning is not a really cool, important thing in performance. But it was just at that time, at our level of development and the thing they were asking us to do was quite a crash. Because I remember like, they put a coat check like at the door of the rehearsal space, and they put like all these chairs that were like strapped together. I feel like there were so many crashes, like in this process, of like wanting that ephemerality, but then crashing against the system that just has actually so much architecture, like so much rigidity and structure and I don't know. I was wondering if you have reflections on that too. Because I think in the end of it, it really did change the way we worked. Some things I'm really proud of, some things I'm like, I would do that differently now that I don't have to do it that way. So, I'm kind of like curious what we will do.

TOSH:

That description was like, I kept hearing the word apocalypse.

They laugh together.

WU:

Just the-the coat check?

TOSH:

The coat check and the straps of the chairs.

They laugh together.

WU:

Yeah. Why is that? Why do you associate that with apocalypse?

TOSH:

The collision.

WU:

Yeah.

TOSH:

The, the collision of systems. The friction and the force disintegration of something. Because friction is like an annihilated force. If you rub two things together, it can create fire, it can create a spark, it can literally physically deteriorate materiality. Rip it. It can tear it. Break it. That's why.

WU:

I was just wondering if you also felt like the crashing, or if there were experiences, or would you relate to it as a crashing or?

TOSH:

Yeah, actually I thought of a word that I want to give.

WU:

For the glossary?

TOSH:

Yeah. Well, I was thinking about this, It's one of my favourite words of Fred's, that's like, it's rub fall.

WU:

Mm-hmm.

TOSH:

This idea of falling. I often like to, when I dance, I like to think about falling, and how to show that with the body, without physically falling. And the amount of strain and energy that it requires to do so is, at least for my body, is like quite astounding to like defy gravity. To evoke falling without doing so. Which feels like this is really like, through Fred's poetry that I would even say this, but I think that it is the imposition that a lot of people are put into. It is like the force of being forced to fall, or a certain kind of gravitational pull, but having to like resist it, and how to do that with grace.

WU:

Hmm.

TOSH:

Or something.

WU:

It's interesting because it's making me think about when you are a dead Carmen, with this garment that you wear, the costume, because I just remember when we made it, it was just a little too long, but then we realized that like it actually looked incredible if we kept that length. But it did mean that you had to dance on your toes for the whole three-hour performance. So, it was almost like you were always like about to fall over. I feel like that's the image I have in my head of your character, was just like what are those, those whirling dervishes or something? Like, it's just something that's like always about to spiral out of control, or something.

TOSH:

Yeah.

WU:

Which I think especially for your style of performance, or like your embodiment of your movement, it's like very grounded actually. Like I feel like your natural way that you move is like…

TOSH:

A tree.

WU:

Like, I can hear your feet when you're walking across a room. Do you know, it's like there's a weightedness, but you had to like float for that character. I don't know if you would call it floating. The face you're making is not…

They laugh together.

TOSH:

Because the movement is my language. So, I don't have things like the use of practice or training where I'm on my toes. So, it was just particularly demanding for my body in a way that was new for me. And I think to do that in your mid-thirties is like different than doing it when you're 17, or 10, or even in your twenties. But yeah, I think there's so many different ways.

It's funny to have a conversation about choreography because I really see the world through dance. I see it as a position of movements. And I think that's the thing that performance, and also our collaboration, has really taught me. Being able to perform in different kinds of stages, formal stages, has made me realize the ways in which, all the different kinds of architectures, the histories of those architectures, what they cultivate in a group of people, how to sit or see or speak, who's allowed to move in and out of these spaces. It's all just, in my head, at least, like a series of choreographies, and I really like getting to play in that space

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Recordings from Carmen in the Clouds.

TOSH:

To pick up on the compositions, which we started five, six years ago. We're now continuing them.

WU:

Yeah. Which, by the way, I think I've been feeling like Moved by the Motion should just keep going with this series. I think it, in a way, becomes what we do now. Now that we don't have to like, well I mean of course we'll have to do other things, but I do feel like we should just keep doing them. But what I mean by this, is Compositions, it's like a format where there's like an improv between us, between me and Tosh, between whoever else is involved. And it's kind of like an exquisite corpse, we call it. Because it's like taking pieces of existing material and like, recomposing them. Unfolding, folding, unfolding, drawing, unfolding.

TOSH:

I love that.

WU:

So, this is like the newest one. Because we did four of them in 2019, and then we ended up doing repertory theatre. But I think now that we're free again, we're doing Composition V (rebellious birds) and that's just a reference to Carmen. But also, I think for me, the five is a V, and it references the bird movement. And birds are like a theme in Carmen because she's a rebellious bird. But also, birds are a theme for us because murmuration was like a, it's like a form I think of, like movement that echoes a lot in our improv collaboration. Especially between you and Josh. But also sonically, like I feel like Tapiwa and Asma and everybody.

So, this performance we'll do in October in the Tate, in the Tanks, is with Tosh and Josh and Tapiwa Svosve, who's also our collaborator from Zurich, he plays saxophone. And Jonathan Lakeland, who's a pianist, and was our conductor for Carmen, or one of our conductors of Carmen. And Juliet Lazano, who's an opera singer. So, it's our first time working actually with Juliet, but everybody else has already been a collaborator before. But it will be, I guess, an excerpt, but really like a total recomposition of the opera that we were doing a year ago.

TOSH:

I like to think of the Compositions as like a composition notebook or something. That it's bound, each piece, the pages front and back, touch each other, but it's also like the next thing.

WU:

Mm-hmm.

TOSH:

I'm really looking forward to working in like, a new form that's an old form.

WU:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, like for example, Jonathan knows the Bizet like inside and out because he's conducted the whole opera for us now. He's also like a really exquisite piano player. And it was so funny the other day we were like in rehearsals and we were like, can you just play like all the hits like at once, like right now, like all together. And he actually just did it. Like he just did this kind of weird improv where he just was like cycling through all the melodies, like some kind of weird speed mash or something of Bizet. And it was really satisfying because I was like, wow, I really feel like this is like in our bones. Like we can do this because we can only do this, because we have done it like so much and so seriously, and now we don't have to be serious anymore. Not that we ever had to be serious, but it's funny how one tricks oneself with that feeling. That's something I'm always trying to overcome.

TOSH:

I think that the theatre can really do that.

WU:

For sure.

TOSH:

I mean that like it is quite oppositional, the theatre, the frontal audience seating. It's so connected to like perspectival drawing even, which is very separative. I'm looking from my point, singularly, out into a distance, or a future. And there's really that line of like the stage in the audience. I suppose the performance will have already happened by the time this is out, but it's Carmen and it's Moved by the Motion, but it's also connected to Theatre Picasso, which is not Moved by the Motion. But all of it is touching.

WU:

Mm-hmm.

TOSH:

I'm curious just to go with the prompts that we have about theatre, about choreography and about apocalypse as it ties to that show, actually. As a viewer, as a spectator, as an interloper in that space, I really, I do feel very much that those topics relate to the way that you dealt with Picasso.

WU:

Yeah. The apocalypse theme for me, I connect to this quote that's, I always forget the full quote, but it's that Christopher Wool painting.

TOSH:

Hmm.

WU:

Which was one of my texts that I proposed like 13 years ago, and I said I wanna make a film with you, it's this idea of like, the audience get up to leave to get their coats, they turn around, there's no more coats and no more home. And it's this idea that somehow the experience of the performance like destroys your, obliterates your sense of reality. And I've always just like found that to be a really powerful idea. It's like, if that's happening in the performance then we've managed to do something, you know?

So, I think in this exhibition, this is my first exhibition. Well, it's my first time making an exhibition actually with Picasso, but also just in general. Because I mostly do video installation, so I don't usually hang paintings, like this was my first time doing a kind of a format where there was maybe more traditional like artwork in the show. But I think it was interesting to realize how much choreography and staging has like influenced my approach now, to exhibition making. Just having spent so much time, like on a stage and working with Moved by the Motion, because the exhibition is very much like…How it operates is like through a sort of choreography, or the introduction of the idea of performance as you enter.

It kind of begins softly with like some proposals about the backstage, and like the staging of even like an art museum exhibition, with the art storage. And then onto a stage. And then there's like sort of a reveal at the end, that I guess for me creates that effect of like, you end up in a white cube. But you have this understanding of what that space of viewing is. It's not like a neutral space. It's actually one that's fully constructed, as constructed as a theatre, as constructed as a play or something. It might not be for everyone. Like I've heard that there was an old person the other day that was complaining that the walls were black, and I totally get that because I think that there are these things at stake, and actually that's why the stakes are high.

I think for me anyway, that's why it was an interesting project to work on, is I thought, okay, there's very few artists that I could actually take aim at this like institutional form. And I think Picasso enables me to do that because there's just this way in which his aura, or the aura of his art, is so powerful that you cannot help but participate in the construction of his myth. So, for me the exhibition really does work on two levels. There's a level where if you don't want to critique, you can just enjoy his work. And if you want to kind of dig a little deeper, you can see all the ways in which like museum collecting, audience viewing, and all of that is like part of a performative-like structure. And I think if you decide to just kind of enjoy it, I think that's also fine. It's like you can also participate in the myth. We can participate in a myth and enjoy that. That's also like a lovely way to go through life.

TOSH:

I'm glad that you talked about it because I think, as both your partner and longtime collaborator, sometimes I take for granted the ways in which you so eloquently offer people to reflect on the performativity of themselves, and the performativity of how they choose to make world. And I think that this installation, which was a total surprise to me, yeah, it was very generous in that way. It was, I would say, quite confrontational probably to a lot of people, especially people who are deeply committed to the myth, and again, in quotation marks, the genius of Picasso.

WU:

I couldn't believe actually that the Tate let me do it, actually. So that feels like an accomplishment in itself, as because there was a lot of institutional navigating.

TOSH:

Yeah.

WU:

A lot of tensions. But it was, I think ultimately, they're happy.

TOSH:

I think it's good though. We encounter so much aggravation, sensorial aggravation and the modern world, or at least I do. And I think it's one thing that I have learned from you, and that I think we both really care deeply about is generosity in the ways that we make work. Whether it's performance or how you install your works, your video pieces. Or how I, if I'm doing even a solo performance. But to offer certain comforts for people, so that they can be uncomfortable with the work. And I think you did that very beautifully. It takes a lot of work to like, create friction in a way that's also like, with care.

WU:

Hmm.

TOSH:

Yeah, It's easy to be just divided rather than sit with something or someone, or ideas that you absolutely just disagree with every part of you, and how to hold that space.

WU:

Thank you. That's really sweet. Creating friction with care is a really nice, I would like to be doing that, so thank you.

TOSH:

Yeah. Even though I make performance works and we do, it's so difficult for me to sit in performance. And I think that you learn that watching performance, actually, it's quite meditative and it requires presence and even discomfort. Like, I think it's not often do we sit so still even. Looking, hearing, concentrating, and also that space of where your mind and your body goes when you're not thinking is quite important.

TRANSITION SOUNDS: Recordings from Carmen in the Clouds.

MINE:
Thank you to Wu and Tosh for this conversation.

MARTIN:
For the transcript of this episode and for resources mentioned in the conversation, go to rosechoreographicschool.com/podcast. The link for this page will also be in the podcast episode description wherever you're listening right now. As part of the ongoing imagination of the school , we are compiling a glossary of words that artists are using to refer to the choreographic .

Every time we invite people to collaborate with us, we also invite them to donate to the glossary and it's hosted on our website. If you'd like to get in touch with us, email us on info@rosechoreographicschool.com. This podcast series is a Rose Choreographic School production. The series is produced and edited by Hester Cant, curated by Mine Kaplangi, with concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Bibliography:

People:

Ashland Mines/DJ Total Freedom

Asma Maroof

Bobby Beethoven

Fred Moten

Jonathon Lakeland

Josh Johnson

Juliet Lazano

Georges Bizet

Octavia E. Butler

Pablo Picasso