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This episode is a conversation between artists about their piece Hagay Dreaming, which was performed at Tate Modern in early March 2025. We hear from Director, Shu Lea Cheang, artistic director and performer Dondon Hounwn, and choreographer Dahu. They explore themes like gender fluidity, reciprocal exchange in tribal culture, and the profound relationship between movement and spiritual belief. You will hear the artists talk to each other in a mixture of English and Mandarin, the conversation is translated as it goes and a full transcript, transcribed by Bryan Yueshen Wu, can be found below.

Find out more about Shu Lea, Dondon and Dahu on our People page.

To the Glossary they donate Androgynous Movement A blend of traditionally masculine and feminine movement qualities, avoiding rigid gendered expressions. , Shapeshifting Presence The ability to shift between energies, forms, or characteristics without being confined to a single identity. , Weight and Flow A balance between strength and softness, sharpness and roundness, structured and free-flowing movement. , Beyond Gender A state where the body is expressive in a way that is not tied to societal gender norms but rather to pure motion, intention, and feeling. , Mrriyux The term means "mutual exchange," but it extends beyond simple trading. , Glubay Glubay relates to the Gaya governing interpersonal relationships, focusing on the establishment of distance, ethics, and etiquette between individuals. and Snhiyi The term means "to believe”. .

This series is produced and edited by Hester Cant.

The series is co-curated by Emma McCormick-Goodhart and Martin Hargreaves, with concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

This episode is a collaboration with Dance Reflections by Van Cleef & Arpels. This initiative supports choreographic heritage, nurtures contemporary creation and engages the widest possible audience in conversations about dance.

Transcript:

MARTIN:

Hello and welcome to þ thorns a sharp prickled growth on flower stems, found on roses., a podcast where we bring you conversations between artists in relation to concepts of the choreographic the choreographic can refer to choreography, and to the writing of dancing bodies, but it can also refer to modes of generating and circumscribing movement that do not register as dance, or as art works.. þ thorns þ is produced by the Rose Choreographic School at Sadler’s Wells. This episode is a collaboration with Dance Reflections by Van Cleef and Arpels. This initiative supports choreographic heritage, nurtures contemporary creation, and engages the widest possible audience in conversations about dance. To find out more, follow the link in the episode description. The artists you will hear in this episode presented their work at the Dance Reflections Festival in London in Spring 2025.

I’m Martin Hargreaves, Head of the Choreographic School, and as part of the ongoing imagination of the school Gathering places for teaching and learning. Also, a school of thought is an idiom that suggests the sharing of traditions of philosophical and intellectual practices. , we are compiling a glossary of words that artists are using to refer to the choreographic the choreographic can refer to choreography, and to the writing of dancing bodies, but it can also refer to modes of generating and circumscribing movement that do not register as dance, or as art works.. Every time we invite people to collaborate with us, we also invite them to donate to the glossary, which is hosted on our website. There is a full transcript available for this episode on our website together with any relevant links to resources mentioned.

This episode is a conversation between artists about their piece Hagay Dreaming, which was performed at Tate Modern in early March 2025. We hear from Director, Shu Lea Cheang, artistic director and performer Dondon Hounwn, and choreographer Dahu. All the artists originate from Taiwan.

This conversation was recorded in a studio in London after the artists’ last day of rehearsals before their performances began. They discuss the words they would like to submit to the glossary, which, in turn, form a discussion into the background of their work together. They explore themes like gender fluidity, reciprocal exchange in tribal culture, and the profound relationship between movement and spiritual belief.

You will hear the artists talk to each other in a mixture of English and Mandarin. Shu Lea briefly translates the mandarin answers as the conversation goes along, but if you’d like to follow direct translations, you can find the full transcript of this episode via the link in the podcast description. The transition sounds you will hear in this episode are field recordings from their respective practices.

SHU LEA:

Very happy to be here for the podcast, invited by the Rose Choreographic School. I'm Shu Lea Cheang, the director of Hagay Dreaming, we have Dondon Hounwn here, the artistic director and also the performer of Hagay Dreaming. And Dahu, the choreographer. Hagay Dreaming is coming Tate Modern, March 13th to 15th, 2025. This is a theatre work that combines the technology, with non-traditional way of expressing the tribal culture. The piece mixes songs, lyrics, chanting, dance, movement, and also with laser lights,motion capture technology, and software processing, it's quite a splendid display. We call Hagay Dreaming, a techno-fantasia guided theatre of revival. Dondon, who comes from the Truku tribe will talk about the Truku tribe's tradition. Dahu coming from, studying,actually, is his last year of pursuing a Master degree in choreography, in a university in Taiwan. We’re happy to have a dialogue among us three. We talked about contributing some words, so I'm going to ask Dondon to start with speaking a few words, and I will try translating a bit for Dondon and Dahu. We will have a Chinese/English language mix in this conversation. Dondon maybe you mention one word and I translate right away.

DONDON:

我是直接說詞彙，還是？

Should I just say the words, or？

SHU LEA:

先說詞彙。

Say the words first.

DONDON:

Okay.

SHU LEA:

然後我，我一個一個字翻譯，然後呃一個一個字去——你說你有幾個詞彙要貢獻給這個學校。

And then I’ll translate word by word. You said you have a few words to share with this school？

DONDON:

Yeah。從這個古老的傳統的跟身體然後塑造成舞蹈的詞彙。第一個很重要的是我們為什麼要舞蹈， 第一個很重要的詞彙是Utux。Utux就是靈。所有的靈的統稱叫Utux。我們因為要跟他們就是呃連結，呃或者是祈禱，或者是我們要傳達意念給靈界，所以Utux是舞蹈的這個最初的起源，是因為要跟Utux做連結。

Yeah. From this ancient tradition, connected to the body and then shaped into the vocabulary of dance. The first important question is why do we dance? The first important term is Utux. Utux means spirit. All spirits are collectively referred to as Utux. We dance in order to connect with them, or to pray, or to communicate intentions to the spirit world. So Utux is the original source of dance, and it began as a way to connect with Utux.

SHU LEA:

So from the traditional culture the tribe, Truku tribe, actually believe the word Utux. So we want to contribute this word, Utux. So Utux mainly meaning spirits. And in the beginning, all the dance choreography, all the dance movements, actually, is trying to make communication with the spirits. And that's the origin of the dance in the tribal culture. The second word we'd like to contribute to the school…

DONDON:

叫

Mita。

SHU LEA:

is Mita.

DONDON:

Mita是觀看，被觀看。那為什麼叫Mita，就是舞蹈開始後來有一些秩序，有一些規律的時候，它的這個演繹的對像其實就有觀看者了，不是只有人靈之間，所以族人，或者是他這樣子的舞蹈，是為了吸引未來可以結婚的對象，所以他有被觀看的這樣的功能，所以這個關鍵字叫做Mita。你要注意，你被觀看，所以你必須要有這個狀態。

Mita means to watch and to be watched. Why is it called Mita? It’s because, as dance began to develop some order and structure, there were now actual viewers of the performance, it was no longer just about the interaction between humans and spirits. So the tribespeople, or this kind of dance, was also meant to attract potential future partners for marriage. That’s why it had this function of being watched.

So this key term is called Mita. You have to be aware that you are being watched, so you need to be in that state.

SHU LEA:

So, the second word we'd like to contribute is Mita. And Mita is watch. And in the tribal culture, the dance actually is a kind of, you watch people and you're being watched. And being watched, it also means that you could be looking for your partner, your lover, your couple. So, it's a sort of show of love. And so that kind of becomes a display of the dance movement, right? Yeah.

DONDON:

第三個詞彙是Mqaras。

The third word is Mqaras.

SHU LEA:

The third word is Mqaras.

DONDON:

這在我們很多古調都會，呃跳舞的歌都會出現這個單字叫Mqaras，它的意思是衷心喜悅。因為舞蹈的最後其實是你要讓你自己是愉悅的，這個愉悅也會傳達給其他的人，或是你必須要娛樂的這個靈。所以最終這個舞蹈是要，呃呈現出來這個愉悅的感覺。

This word Mqaras appears in many of our ancient tunes, songs that are danced to. It means heartfelt joy. Because at the end of the dance, the purpose is really to make yourself feel joyful. That joy will also be transmitted to others, or it's about entertaining the spirit. So ultimately, the dance is meant to express this feeling of joy.

SHU LEA:

Mqaras is a beautiful word. This word means you are actually happy and you are celebrating. You want to share your happiness with the spirits, with your tribal people. You really have to feel from your heart, and the feeling is coming from your heart. And you share with the tribal people, particularly in a kind of celebration ceremony.

DONDON:

嗯。所以關於這個德魯古傳統的這個身體，或是舞蹈的三個詞彙，就到這邊。

So here are the three words about the body or dance in the Truku tradition.

SHU LEA:

So the three words we talk about, and let's say it again.

SHU LEA:

這三個詞再講一遍。

Let’s go over the three words again.

DONDON

這三個字是Utux、Mita、Mqaras。

The three words are Utux, Mita, Mqaras。

SHU LEA:

So, Utux the spirits. Mita, to watch. Mqaras, to celebrate, to enjoy, to really feel happiness.

We're going to switch to Dahu, maybe coming from more of a choreographer, to talk about how it's actually, this is the first time we were with Dahu in this new version, or in this first premiere, the premiere of the theatrical version in Tate Modern. It’s gonna be a 100-minute piece, we do have a lot of dance sequences. We were happy to bring in Dahu. He goes to the mountain, working with the young people to start training them and the whole choreography stories. So, we have been rehearsing since…how many months?

SHU LEA

多久個月了？

How many months?

DONDON:

六個月了。

Six months.

SHU LEA:

It’s been six months, making the rehearsals for six months. So during the six months, we started writing a proposal, sort of composition notes and notation. And then from there to try to make up the dance steps. Through this process, by working with the dancers and performers, then gradually developing some concepts. I want to ask one question before we get into words. Dahu is getting a very classic choreographer's training. At the same time, all the dancers you're working with at Elug are not professional dancers, and they are really students and getting trained. Particularly because of Dondon’s Elug Corner Workspace in the mountain, and his idea is always how to transmit the knowledge of the tradition, including different kinds of crafts to the youngsters. There’s a lot of training he is really dedicated to, right? Actually maybe first we talk about how you feel about training the non professional dancers.

DAHU:

Thank you Shu Lea for the invite and Dondon also. Actually this is very hard for me because, from my experience, I work for professional dance companies, not for like, Dondon’s group, right? Yeah. But it's very different for me about the body, about the movement, about the knowledges, it 's very different. But I think it is very interesting because they are very pure, so for me, the body just has a lot of…uh…

DAHU:

生存感。

A sense of survival.

SHU LEA:

the body…Yeah! The youngsters, they are not professional dancers, they are pure, but their body is filled with life. Yeah. Filled with life.

DAHU:

Yeah, filled with life! So everytime we have rehearsal, or I'm training, I feel very rushed, yeah, because there are light and…

DAHU:

在那個當下，對。

At that very moment, yes.

SHU LEA:

They are alive. They're like living in the present. But do you feel, actually, I have a

question. Do you feel like they are like clay, you know?

SHU LEA:

就是好像黏（泥）土一樣，你可以把它去摸、塑造出來對不對？

It's just like clay, you can touch it and shape it, right?

DAHU:

Yes, yeah!

SHU LEA:

It's like their body is almost like a piece of clay. And it's soft, and it could be changing shape. And that was the process that you started working with them? Yeah.

DAHU:

So I think their body is very非常接近這Hagay Dreaming的piece，not like the professional dancer

So I think their body is very close to Hagay Dreaming’s piece, not like the professional dancer.

SHU LEA:

This is actually great. With Dondon, we collaborated on this work. And right from the beginning, we always talk about, wow, do we change? invite professional dancers to come and work with us? But at some point we say, it's okay, we're going to work with our non-professional dancers. And particularly with the students, the kids. They are not even in dance school. And so that particular training becomes really important.

Maybe Dondon would also like to add something.

SHU LEA:

你也講一下，為什麼沒有用職業舞者？

Can you also tell us why you didn’t have professional dancers?

DONDON:

問我嗎？我覺得，我覺得遊林驚夢就是會有很多不同的特質，或是不同領域的人加入。但我始終覺得從一開始就跟著我們的那三個舞者，他們不一樣，因為他們就是，嗯從...對啊，就像幼苗一樣啊。所以，呃但他們還有另一個比較特別的代表，就是，他們就是HAGAY的靈群。那個靈群就是見證不同的， 你可以說是情感嗎？還是說它的經驗，這樣。所以他們是跟著我，跟著遊林驚夢一起在改變的。所以我覺得他們三個雖然是群舞，但我覺得，某種程度，他們其實算是核心的表演者。對，對。

Are you asking me? I think Hagay Dreaming has many different qualities, or people from different fields joining in. But I’ve always felt that the three dancers who’ve been with us from the very beginning, they’re different. Because they’re like… yeah, like seedlings. They also represent something else that’s quite special. They are Hagay’s spirit group. That spirit group bears witness to different… you could say emotions? Or perhaps experiences. So they’re evolving together with me, and with Hagay Dreaming. That’s why, even though the three of them are performing in a group dance, I feel that, in a way, they’re actually the core performers. Yeah, yeah.

SHU LEA:

Yeah, so we have been working with these three youngsters, and they actually play both the tribal youth, and also play the Hagay spiritual beings in the work. Those different scenes, they act out changing characters. They have been following Dondon in the mountains, they come to Elug, and they become the spirit of Hagay spiritual beings. Which is what Dondon has been trying to convey. They pretty much live together, play together, eat together. This kind of intimacy, they're so close to Dondon. You are bringing them up, almost like a little tree coming from the seeds, start breathing out, and then come here, getting more mature in terms of their performance.

SHU LEA:

可是為什麼你當初沒有說，我記得我們有一次討論，有沒有說要找，要不要找職業舞者，後來，後來是什麼樣決定不要找職業舞的。

But why didn’t you… I remember we had a discussion once about whether or not we should bring in professional dancers. So what was it that made us decide not to go with professional dancers in the end?

SHU LEA:

My question is like, why did we finally decide that we don't really want professional dancers?

DONDON:

對。他們就是Hagay， 就是這個他們的出現,好像也在演繹我的經驗，所以就決定就不要找職業的舞者。

Right. They are Hagay. But their presence, it also seems to be performing, or embodying, my own experience. So that’s why we decided not to bring in professional dancers.

SHU LEA:

Okay, when you have a piece of work and you have a dance troupe, then you have the dancers, then you hire professional dancers to come in with you. You schedule a time to meet up, to do the rehearsal. Then, after the rehearsal, they leave. But here, exactly, it's different because the three youngsters, very close to Dondon, and this is called training. But not only training, but also living together. They became part of Dondon, they became Hagay, and that's the difference. Now we can get into the choreography a bit. Maybe Dahu wants to teach us a few words.

DAHU:

Yeah, okay. Maybe I will speak in Chinese, and they will translate.

DAHU:

我覺得第一個很重要的，關於這個Hagay Dreaming很重要的字是土地。

I think the first and most important word about Hagay Dreaming is land.

SHU LEA:

The first word that he wants to speak about is the land.

DAHU:

Yeah。因為這個土地關乎的是，這個故事是從這個山林裡面講出來的。二來是，當我們進入到劇場，在泰特美術館這裡，它又是另一個空間的轉譯。

Yeah. Because this land, this story, is something that comes from the mountains and forests. And secondly, when we enter the theatre space, like here at the Tate Modern, it becomes another kind of spatial translation.

SHU LEA:

Yeah, I think for many, in the tribal culture, the land is so important, right? We talk about it in the tribe, you know, people are connected to the land. It's the earth, the Mother Earth, and the sense of mother Earth in terms of water, in terms of river. Dondon writes lyrics about the earth, the water, the trees, the sky, the land of your own. And so the connection with the land is important. And so, when you choreograph, I did notice that in the theatre, on the dance floor, you really want the dancers to touch the floor, isn't it? And that particular movement, I did notice, and some of those movements are so radical.....

SHU LEA:

碰下去 碰下去, 然後那種觸接。

Touch it, touch it, and then that kind of contact.

SHU LEA:

You know the way, or almost like, ‘touch down to your land!’ You know? So I find that very interesting in terms of your choreography. Maybe to add to that, a lot of the time, choreography is about wanting to jump into the air, right? There's a lot of jumping up, but you're actually doing touch down. How do you explain?

SHU LEA:

你怎麼解釋？

How would you like to explain?

DAHU:

啊我覺得這個往上跟那個往下，是，對我來說是，這個Hagay Dreaming很重要的某種生命的表現。就是當一個人他要越往上的時候，其實他更重要的是往下紮根。反映的是，就像植物一樣的生長，你越是要長高，那你更要越紮根。它，而且在這個跳動之中，其實可以反映出Hagay Dreaming他們在面對他們面對的議題，面對他們的問題，或麵對它們的身份認同的某種跳躍的，這種動能的表現。

Ah, I think this upward and downward movement—for me, it’s a very important expression of life within Hagay Dreaming. That is, the more a person wants to grow upward, the more important it is for them to take root downward. It reflects a kind of growth, like a plant, the taller you want to grow, the deeper your roots need to go. And in that act of jumping or movement, you can actually see how Hagay Dreaming reflects their way of facing issues, facing challenges, or confronting questions of identity, through a kind of leap, a kind of kinetic expression.

SHU LEA:

So yeah, interesting, because we talk about, usually choreography is you do a lot of jumping up into the air. And for Dahu, if you want to go jumping into the air, first, you have to get the roots down. You have to go down to get your roots. Your idea is when you want to go up, you want to go higher up, but actually you go down, to make sure you are rooted. The world will be your roots. And you become solid. You are connecting to the earth, connecting to the land. And this is actually the most important for the tribal culture, isn't it?

DAHU:

所以在這樣子的跳躍之中，其實更可以顯得出，人或者是舞者在這樣子的，當下的空間的存在感。

So in this kind of leaping movement, it actually highlights even more the presence of the person, or the dancer, in that immediate space and moment.

SHU LEA:

So in this case, it's because you're going to touch down with the earth and then this becomes a way of living, becomes a way of feeling alive, and a way of making this life very solid.

DAHU:

Ok. 然後第二個對我來說非常重要的是時間性。

Ok. And the second thing that’s very important to me is temporality, the sense of time.

SHU LEA:

The second word is about time.

DAHU:

這個時間性包括的是過去，跟現在，還有未來。

This temporality includes the past, present, and future.

SHU LEA:

Time. We can always talk about time in terms of past, present, and future.

DAHU:

因為在這個Hagay Dreaming非常重要的過去，它是從一個歷史，從一個歷史的文本出發，所以當那個舞者的身上他要如何有這樣子歷史的痕跡的累計跟展現，在這個作品裡面是非常重要的。

Because in Hagay Dreaming, the past is very important. It begins from a historical text, from a historical starting point. So how the dancer’s body carries and reveals the accumulation of these historical traces, that’s something very important in this work.

SHU LEA:

Because Hagay Dreaming is actually borrowed from an ancient legend. And then from that ancient legend to develop into the story about… Well, maybe I will take this chance to speak about the legend in terms of the past. There is an old legend, which Dondon actually reinterpreted a bit, about how a hunter goes up to the mountain to hunt. And we actually cast a woman to play this hunter. Traditionally, it's always a hunter as a man, but this time we actually cast a woman as a hunter. This is another thing that maybe we'll explain later. The woman hunter went up to the forest, and it started raining. The woman hunter looked for a cave to hide. She found a cave, and in the cave, in a kind of dreaming state, she woke up, she met these non binary Hagay spiritual beings.

Hagay, in the traditional tribal sense, are neither men nor women. In today's terms, they will be non-binary spiritual beings. And they came in, normally gender-wise they should be men, but they dress like a woman and they are gentle like a woman and they dance elegantly. But they have so much knowledge. So they would, with the hunter, transmit the knowledge of how to live, the Gaya living principle, they transmit the skills of weaving, the hunting. And for the hunter to take all this knowledge back to the village, and transmit it , distribute it more to the tribal people. Borrowing from this legend of Hagay stories, this is one of the elements when we start talking about time, is actually, time comes from the legend. So time actually refers back to the past and the present.

DAHU:

Ok，然後現在，現在是我認為它是當下的存在性。身體如何在那個當下這個空間產生某種跟土地之間的關聯，同時又回應科技，鐳射，燈光這些事情。對。

Ok, and now, I see it as a kind of presence in the moment. How the body, in that specific moment and space, creates a connection with the land, while at the same time responding to technology, lasers, lighting—all of these elements. Yes.

SHU LEA:

So, of course, we are living in the current time, in the present time. So for Hagay Dreaming, exactly, we want to explore the issues of the tribal people in the current time. So you're talking about how in the current time, there's still social and political repression around from the leading governments. So as a tribal person, there's still various degrees of struggling going on. For example, you actually cannot build houses in your tribe, right? You are forbidden to build new houses, even if you are supposed to own the land, right? If you live in this kind of repression, you want to revert the situation and still be positive, right? So being still positive, that’s the way that in Hagay Dreaming, we turn that negative energy into positive. We use technology to reinterpret the tribal culture.

DAHU:

然後接下來是未來。嗯，我覺得Hagay Dreaming，它是一個無邊際的一個，都在一個變動性的一個狀態之中，它在回應之後的那個當下的後者是什麼其實都對我們來說都是一個問號，但我們一直在這樣子的一個嘗試跟探索中找到某一種時間的流域。

And next comes the future. Hm, I feel that Hagay Dreaming is something boundless, and it's always in a state of flux. What it’s responding to in the future, what that “later moment” might be, these are all still question marks for us. But through this ongoing process of experimentation and exploration, we’re finding a kind of temporal current, a flow of time.

SHU LEA:

So, we also want to talk about time in terms of the future. But by future meaning, it's a kind of certain unknown future, right? We don't know what the future would look like at the same time. Meaning, also, the future is something that we can shape it.

DAHU:

Yep.

SHU LEA:

Because we don't know exactly what the future looks like, that means that we are the ones, we can go and shape the future. We can actually mold the future, according to our desire. And I think it's very uplifting, for me. I think how Hagay Dreaming is expressed, it's actually looking into the future, and the future will be brighter, as we want to bring that brightness into the current time.

DAHU:

Yeah。一個非常有趣的，因為它不像是一個很線性的一種表現，反而是在裡面的很多的環節是跳躍式的，交叉式的，它同時都是在一個，呃，變動的狀態之中產生那個當下性。可是在當下性之下，它又有一個未來性這件事情。就我們稱未來性可以回看到那個過去性，yeah。

Yeah. It’s something really interesting, because it’s not a linear kind of expression. Instead, many of the elements within it are nonlinear, leaping, intersecting.

Everything is happening in a state of constant change, and out of that, the sense of presence in the moment emerges. But beneath that presence, there’s also a sense of futurity. And what we call “futurity” can also reflect back onto the past. Yeah.

SHU LEA:

So true. Dondon wrote the original script which came from his own personal story. It was very straightforward. And then I adapted the script for the theatre. I decided to bring in more of Dondon's personal story, like the scene we added with the butterfly, and also the gender exchange scene. Of course, there is a story to tell. We have a narrative. At the same time, I do feel the narrative is jumping around, we jump to this story then we jump to another, like we follow our own logic. Dahu, you talk about how we go back to the past, and then we jump to the future, and then we go back to the present. I write more of a sci-fi narrative. For me, Hagay Dreaming is totally science fiction. You know, in a way that, because being science fiction you actually travel between past, present, and future. You're back to the future, you're back to the past, and the future cannot exist without the past. And the past is actually predicting the future.

---

SHU LEA:

I'm going to let Dondon talk about the storyline. I just talked about how the storyline has the past, present, and future, but Dondon has his own interpretation. So, there's three words, or three storylines. Dondon would like to talk about them. The first being…

DONDON:

我覺得剛開始就要先理解那個Gaya，但Gaya其實有一個非常簡單又有力量的解釋，我翻譯它叫宇宙的法則。

I think from the very beginning, we need to first understand Gaya. And Gaya actually has a very simple yet powerful explanation. I translate it as “the law of the universe.”

SHU LEA:

All the time with Hagay Dreaming, we always come back to this word, Gaya. Gaya as the order of the cosmos, right? And it's funny, it doesn't matter how we talk about it, we talk about the non-binary gender, we talk about going to the forest, transmit knowledge, we always come back to Gaya, Gaya as a living principle, yeah.

DONDON:

好，所以，呃這是跟剛傳統的這個身體舞蹈不一樣的詞彙。那這三個詞彙是我，嗯這麼多年，不管是遊林驚夢，或者是Elug，或是我們在做的Gaya計畫裡面，我覺得很重要的三個層次的表達。

Ok, so—uh—these are terms that are different from the earlier traditional vocabulary of body and dance. And these three terms, for me, after all these years, whether it’s Hagay Dreaming, Elug, or the Gaya Project we’ve been working on, I feel they represent three very important layers of expression.

SHU LEA:

Dondon has founded Elug Art Corner, doing various projects, including Hagay Dreaming in a more theatrical form. There is Gaya gathering in the tribe, in the mountain, with artists, researchers, culture workers. So there's many layers of expression, right? It all comes back about advocating the Gaya living principle.

DONDON:

Mrriyux這個詞彙呢，就是它，呃因為在太魯閣語的交換有很多種情境。第一種情境就是Pryuxun。就是我拿我得到的東西，就是說我的勞動跟你換你的物件，這是第一種。再來是Pryuxun，就是對等的物件的交換，比如說我拿我的眼鏡跟你換你的杯子。那另外一種就是勞動的，比如說我幫你蓋房子，叫Smbarux。你幫我，下次你，我幫，呃，就是我蓋房子你要回來叫Sntuku 。對。但是我要說的交換是Mrriyux，是，呃比較是生命的，技術的，或者是這個叫智慧的交換。所以，它就是在講，Hagay跟我們交換了什麼，我們也跟Hagay交換了什麼，所以我覺得這個詞彙是，呃在遊林驚夢裡面特別明顯的一種交換的意義這樣。

The term Mrriyux—it refers to one of the many forms of exchange in the Truku language. The first kind of exchange is called Pryuxun, which means I trade something I’ve earned through labour for your object, an exchange between labour and item. Then there’s Pryuxun, which is an equal object-for-object exchange, like I trade my glasses for your cup. Another type is labour-based, for example, Smbarux means I help you build a house, and Sntuku means that next time, you come help me, that’s a reciprocal labour exchange. But the type of exchange I want to talk about is Mrriyux—this is more about life, skills, or wisdom. So it’s about what has Hagay exchanged with us, and what have we exchanged with Hagay? I think this term carries a particularly clear meaning of exchange in Hagay Dreaming.

SHU LEA:

It's interesting because this is different way of talking about alternative economy.

SHU LEA:

有點像是，呃互換經濟這樣，就是不同樣的經濟方式。

It’s kind of like a reciprocal economy, an alternative form of economy.

SHU LEA:

So in the tribal culture, it's not so much that you can buy everything. You don't use money to buy everything, but you do exchange. For example, you exchange certain thing with certain things. So you can exchange labour, you can exchange goods, you can exchange objects, but they are always reciprocal. Maybe today you come to my house to eat, tomorrow I'll bring you a lobster, that kind of thing. I see how every time I go to the tribe, this is how you live, right? You have these ‘Oh, I have the vegetable, I’ll give you some vegetable’. The next day I suddenly got a fish from the river, right? that's actually the most basic thing. Hagay Dreaming is probably kind of taking this exchange principle, and then even putting it further into how life or the living itself is a way of showing the exchange, right? That particular concept of exchange is important in terms of the Gaya Living Principle.

Yeah, so, it is in a certain way, like, how do you actually make that balance, you know?

SHU LEA:

就是好像說你有一個稱，來稱這個交換的， 哪個重哪個輕的這種交換。可是事實上是不存在這個稱的概念。

It’s like you have a scale, a balance, to weigh what’s heavier or lighter in an exchange. But in reality, the concept of that scale doesn’t actually exist.

DONDON:

對。但我剛，我用的這個詞彙叫Mrriyux的意思是他都不是物質的，他是智慧、智慧或這種無形的。對。

Right. But just now, the term I used, Mrriyux, means that it’s not material at all. It’s about wisdom, or knowledge, or other intangible things. Yes.

SHU LEA:

Mrriyux, the particular word that Dondon mentioned, Mrriyux, it is not material exchange, but it is non-material, the exchange of knowledge, intellect.

DONDON:

嗯，很難翻喔。第二個詞彙是Glubay。Yeah Glubay。Glubay是在講一種關係，那關係在德魯古語也有很多種，但Glubay在講的是一種人群跟，就是群體跟群體的這種連結。所以我把遊林驚夢算是一個從德魯古來的故事，所以德魯古是一個族群，那我們有透過遊林驚夢把我們的訊息分享出去，或者是說，呃轉譯出去的這個過程，就是群體跟群體之間的建立，也可以說是德魯古這個族群在跟世界或者是不同的國家、不同的族群建立這樣的關係。所以就用Glubay。

Mm, it’s hard to translate. The second term is Glubay. Yeah, Glubay. Glubay refers to a type of relationship, and in the Truku language there are many types of relationships, but Glubay specifically refers to the connection between groups—between communities. I consider Hagay Dreaming to be a story that comes from Truku, so Truku is one group, and through Hagay Dreaming, we share or translate our message outward. This process of translation and sharing is about building connections between groups, you could say it’s how the Truku people are forming relationships with the world, with other countries, with other communities. So we use the word Glubay.

SHU LEA:

The word we want to contribute is also Glubay. Glubay is more talking about the relationship between humans, between groups, between society, community. Again, a kind of Gaya living principle, how we built a different kind of gender border, how we are individually showing expression, including different kinds of taboo, or different kinds of ritual. And all these become part of the way that we make a relationship between us, between human and between society and between community, between different groups or tribes.

DONDON:

最後一個詞彙叫Snhiyi。這個詞彙是我覺得所有的遊林驚夢的這個歷程裡面，嗯最後的一個很明、很清楚的，怎麼講，我們這幾年的得到的一個驗證，也會，結果這個驗證反而是回到這個很古老的詞彙。

The final term is Snhiyi. This term, I think, is the clearest and most evident outcome in the entire journey of Hagay Dreaming. How should I put it… it’s a kind of validation we’ve arrived at over the past few years. And interestingly, this validation brings us back to this very ancient word.

SHU LEA:

Snhiyi, this last word that to add to the vocabulary, Snhiyi is a really old world. And it means to believe, right?

SHU LEA：

相信，信任。

Believe.

SHU LEA:

Snhiyi actually means to believe. We have been working on Hagay Dreaming for five years with different versions of developing this theatre piece, now, we always return use these old words to confirm our existence, to believe.

DONDON:

嗯。而且是我後來才發現這個字，就是跟身體有關係。因為sn是這個字是德魯古語裡面是正在動作的，sn這個音，或是運轉的。例如我的儀式叫，那個呃smapuh的那個s的開頭都是它在運作的意思。結果hiyi其實是身體，所以是為什麼叫運作身體，等於相信，就是我覺得是我們在這幾年的，不管是身體的、表演的這種實踐，讓我們就是透過這樣的形式去相信Gaya，相信這個Hagay的故事當中要預示給我們的這些事情，所以它就在講的是透過這樣子的舞蹈，透過這樣的表演，我們的身體經驗過了，因此我們才相信。

Mm. And it was only later that I realized this word is related to the body.

Because sn, this sound in Truku, refers to something that is in motion, or operating. For example, in my ritual called smapuh, the initial s also indicates movement or functioning. It turns out that hiyi means body. So why does it mean “activating the body” or “body in motion”? It equals belief. I feel that over these past few years, through our physical and performative practices, we’ve come to believe in Gaya, to believe in the things foretold or suggested to us in the Hagay story, through this kind of form. So it’s saying that through dance, through performance, our bodies have experienced it, and therefore, we believe.

SHU LEA:

We talk about these words, Snhiyi, to believe, but actually we just discovered in Snhiyi actually means movement and connection with the body. We start talking about the body and body movement. Through the body movement we experience the spiritual, and we come to believe. Do you think it's a more personal experience or you need to do it with others?

SHU LEA:

就是你覺得是比較個人的自己的體驗，還是一定要跟別人一起來體驗比較？

So do you feel it’s more about personal experience, something individual? Or is it something that really needs to be experienced together with others?

DONDON:

一定先從自己。在部落裡面都是這樣。包含夢境，我們都是自己先夢到了，或是自己感受過了，我們就開始說，這個說的過程很重要，然後你也說，我也說之後開始變成一種族群經驗。對。

It definitely starts with yourself. That’s how it always is in the tribe. Even with dreams, we first dream them individually, or we feel something ourselves. Then we start to speak about it, and that act of sharing is really important. You speak, I speak, and through that, it gradually becomes a collective experience for the whole community. Yeah.

SHU LEA:

This is, if we start promoting this, we can cure modern society. You know, for all these people suffering from alienation or solitude, we're going to become a witch doctor to help solve the problem. Because the question about how do you do experience, you know? Because modern society doesn't really have such a, kind of, group experience. So, but I ask, how do we make the experiences? And Dondon replied to me that you still have to do it from an individual first. So everybody has to experience it first, and then extend it to become a group experience, to share the experience. And that's how a social group is founded, you know? And so, I think this is, maybe this is what exactly is lacking in modern society. The way we live our life. And, we are missing that particular experience sharing, don't you think?

SHU LEA:

你覺得嗎？ 對不對？

Do you think in the same way?

SHU LEA:

所以如何從一個個人的經驗，到群體的一個體會，嗯。

So how do we move from an individual experience to a collective understanding? Mm.

SHU LEA:

So if we say that, then we extend to what we want the audience to feel when they come to see this show. I was working with the curator about making the playbill. We want to identify all different tribal languages used, also there is Chinese Mandarin. We put on the playbill, rough translation. For me, its not so important to really understand all the words, the lyrics?

SHU LEA:

就是說有沒有真的那麼重要，一定每個歌詞，每個講的話都要知道 。

I mean, is it really that important? Do we really have to understand every lyric, every word that’s spoken? Do we really have to know all of it?

DONDON:

I don’t think so.

SHU LEA:

We agree.

DONDON:

有一个故事就是，那个有的时候听不懂的感受，是最有力量的。

There’s a story that says—sometimes, the feelings you get from what you don’t understand are the most powerful ones.

SHU LEA:

Yes, this is how I feel too, It’s gonna be this kind of situation - some people would feel so annoyed and frustrated. Some people come to this piece, and you're speaking and singing in native tongue, and people can get frustrated by not understanding the words. We publish in the playbill, some form of translation, so people can read it. But I was thinking, either you read or not read the translation of the lyrics, but during the performance, you should still feel it.

DONDON:

就是那個天主教剛到部落的時候，他們唱拉丁文，因為那時候來的都是瑞士啊，法國，所以非常多部落的人聽到拉丁文，我們不懂，可是很好聽。然後大家就覺得，wow，神聖的這樣。後來，這個開始用中文的時候，他，噢不，開始用我們的母語的時候，我們開始用我們的母語唱這個歌，然後有很多人聽到是母語版的，說wow amazing就是，但是德魯古人不感動了，因為我們聽的我們知道我們在唱什麼了。後來最後被翻成中文的時候，那些歌就都變得很無聊了。對。你其實在聽我們很多原住民的歌的時候都是虛詞，因為它不需要用語言來表達那個感受。對。

When Catholicism first came to the tribe, they sang in Latin, because at that time, the ones who came were from Switzerland, France, and so on. So many people in the tribe heard Latin, we didn’t understand it, but it sounded beautiful. And everyone felt, wow, this is something sacred. Later on, when they started using Chinese—oh no, when they started using our mother tongue— we began singing the same songs in our own language. And a lot of people said, “Wow, amazing!” But the Truku people didn’t dare to move anymore, because now we understood what we were singing. Then finally, when those songs were translated into Chinese, they all became boring. Yeah. So when you listen to many Indigenous songs, they’re often full of filler sounds or vocables, because they don’t rely on language to express emotion. Right.

SHU LEA:

Also very interesting, because we're actually simply talking about, you know, what do people expect when they come to see Hagay dreaming? Of course I would consider it very immersive. You kind of sink into the piece. Almost like, you need to lose yourself to experience it.

SHU LEA:

就是你必須要把自己的一切都丟掉，你才可以去接受這個戲。

You have to let go of everything—completely let go of yourself—only then can you truly accept this performance.

SHU LEA:

You have to lose yourself in order to get into the world of Hagay Dreaming. And so that you can accept Hagay Dreaming. And so in terms of the language, the understanding that is true, we don't talk about the culture of when the first missionary came to the tribe, came to the village, and they were singing all the songs in Latin language. And for the tribal people, they say, ‘wow, this is very deep, we don't understand it, but it's very sacred’. The missionary was singing in Latin. And then later those words will translate into the tribal language, and then the tribal people feel, ‘oh, it's a very personal…it feels like we can be in sync’.

But then later, when it was translated into Mandarin Chinese, Chinese is almost like a colonialist language, right? And so, the tribal people start thinking, ‘Oh God, this is a very boring language, boring singing, right?’ So, it's so interesting.....

DONDON:

所以我说我们的古调其实很多都是。

That’s why I say many of our ancient chants are actually like that.

SHU LEA:

Alright, exactly! So, interestingly, we're trying to translate all these tribal songs, but at the same time, we realize a lot of lyrics are just more like humming, chanting.

SHU LEA:

就是你在想的虛字就是Humming，Humming就是Chanting。

The filler sounds you’re thinking of—that’s humming. And humming is actually chanting.

DONDON:

Like Ohnay. Ohnay都是虛詞。

Like Ohnay. Ohnay, those are all filler words.

SHU LEA:

Yeah. The word is not really any word to be translated. It's like an exclamation. It's a way of expression, but there's really no particular meaning.

Maybe we talk about the lyrics and the dance movement. In Hagay Dreaming we have a few songs in different tribes' languages. Why do you decide to use different songs from different tribes?

SHU LEA:

為什麼這些歌有這麼不同？

Why are these songs so different?

DONDON:

噢這些都是因為表演者本身的背景。

Oh, this is all because of the performers' own backgrounds.

SHU LEA:

Ah, yes!

DONDON:

對。不是刻意選的。

Right. It wasn't a deliberate choice.

SHU LEA:

對對對。

Yeah yeah yeah.

SHU LEA:

Actually, this is the…

SHU LEA:

五個Tribe。

Five Tribes.

DONDON:

Yeah。賽德克，卑南族，德魯古，泰雅，阿美。

Yeah. Seediq, Puyuma, Truku, Atayal, Amis.

SHU LEA:

六個？

Six?

DONDON:

有嗎？五個。賽德克，泰雅，德魯古，阿美，卑南，五個Tribes。

Is there? Five. There are five tribes Seediq, Atayal, Druku, Ami, and Puyuma.

SHU LEA:

Okay, it's very easy to talk about Hagay Dreaming like, it's just from Dondon's village, the Truku tribe. But it's the same globally. Everybody likes to say, ‘Oh, indigenous people’. like just one world.

SHU LEA:

原住民文化。

Indigenous culture.

SHU LEA:

Indigenous people. Aboriginal people. Aboriginal culture. It seems like the whole world, in terms of Indigenous or Aboriginal, It's all mixed together. You never know a different tribe. And actually, in Taiwan, we have how many tribes?

DONDON:

16.

DAHU:

16.

SHU LEA:

16! Ah, so there are actually 16 Indigenous tribes in Taiwan, officially recognized as 16 tribes. And in Hagay Dreaming we actually have 5 tribes. The performers actually come from 5 different tribes. And so that's why, in the performance, we actually use different languages, different tribal tongues, to use their songs to express.

From there, we also developed very different dance movements, isn't it? Let’s take a moment to just talk a bit about the exchange scene which we worked a lot with it. This scene is about gender exchange. I debated with Dondon about, ‘In the traditional culture, how do you consider what's the movement for women, what's the movement for men?’

DONDON:

但它是跟著原來傳統的分工演變而來的，因為以前女生就是農耕、織布，男性就是狩獵、打仗，這就是身體條件的後來的，就是以前的區分嘛。所以有很多舞蹈，比如說女性的動作大部分從農耕的動作來的，男生的動作大部分就是他狩獵的動作來的，所以因此變成了這個，好像就是男生的舞蹈，女生的舞蹈是長怎麼樣，但是那現在到底要怎麼談？因為男生去織布了，女生去打獵了，所以這個東西在當代應該，它就應該是要被打破的。對。

But this all evolved from the traditional division of labour. In the past, women did farming and weaving, and men went hunting and fought wars, that was the physical basis for the earlier distinctions. So in many dances, for example, women’s movements mostly came from agricultural gestures, and men’s movements mostly came from hunting actions. And that’s how it developed into what we now think of as “men’s dance” or “women’s dance”, how they’re supposed to look. But how do we talk about this now? Because men are weaving, and women are hunting. So this distinction, in today’s context, really should be broken. Yeah.

SHU LEA:

We did talk about, for Hagay Dreaming, we have a particular scene about gender exchange. And we were thinking how women are being defined as women. A woman's job, the labour for women is farming, is putting seeds, and harvesting, farming, work, and weaving, making clothes, weaving. And the man is supposed to go hunting, and then go to war. So, because of this particular job segregation, you develop different dance movements. Different ways of body expression, right?

But today we're talking about, how these boundaries of male and female can actually be broken. Why we come back to talk about fluidity.

SHU LEA:

就是我們又回到講到就是說性別的，呃流通性、交換性，對對。

So we’ve come back again to talking about gender, its fluidity and exchangeability.

SHU LEA:

We always, I think, we always come back to keep talking about the fluidity, or the gender exchange. We talk about fluidity in gender, but also fluidity in terms of our way of communication with the cosmos, right?

DONDON:

嗯我想再送大家一個詞彙，就是編織，tminun。tminun在漢人的學者裡面他就是把它歸類叫做女性。但這就是一個殖民的、錯誤的詮釋。因為tminun在德魯古語裡面它也指男性的編織，所以編織這個詞彙本身是沒有性別的。原來是沒有性別的。

Mm, I’d like to offer one more term to everyone, and that is “weaving”— tminun. Among Han Chinese scholars, tminun has been classified as feminine. But that’s actually a colonial and mistaken interpretation. Because in the Truku language, tminun can also refer to men’s weaving. So the word “weaving” itself is not gendered, it was originally genderless.

SHU LEA:

But this also refers to why we are doing Hagay Dreaming. Referring back to the way we consider in the beginning of the cosmos, there was no male and female gender. Dondon wants to introduce this word called tminun. Tminun, in the traditional sense, means weaving. But tminun doesn't have gender differentiation. Tminun can be a man doing the weaving or a woman doing the weaving. How do we return to the primal state? The beginning of the state? When there was no particular gender differentiation. And how, the way Hagay, being this non-binary creature, is a fluid creature. And in a way, Hagay is almost like the word queer, right? Hagay is exactly queer in the modern sense, in the Western world sense. So how the queer, the word queer has the same issues. So in the beginning, the queer folks say ‘we are queer!’ Then it became a bad word. At the end, LGBTQ communities start reclaiming this word, saying ‘I'm queer identified, we are queer!’. I think Hagay has the same meaning in the tribe.

DONDON:

No, not really.

DONDON:

呃我覺得Hagay它不是只是一個外在的表達，也不是只有你自己認同你是酷兒的表達。

Uh, I think Hagay is not just an external expression, and it’s not only about expressing your self-identification as queer.

SHU LEA:

Mm-hmm.

DONDON:

Hagay還有某一種幽默，某一種可以征服人心的能力。 因為Hagay都是表演者，Hagay還要懂部落裡面的大小事，他才可以表達幽默，你才會被人家講，喔Hagay這樣子。因為你的出現大家都很開心，再來Hagay還有一個就是它對，我說以前喔，它對編織，對美感，對部落的這種公益，或者什麼，他是特別敏感的，所以這也呼應神話當中的Hagay，他就是把這個東西交給了那個男性嘛，所以Hagay沒有那麼，不是只有身份認同，也不是只有外在的表現，Hagay還要有能力說出來，還要有能力去，去分享傳承。

Hagay also carries a certain sense of humour, a kind of charisma that can win people over. Hagay, because Hagay is always a performer, also has to understand all the big and small matters within the tribe—only then can they express humour. That’s when people will say, “Oh, that’s so Hagay.” Because your presence brings joy to everyone. Another trait, I'm talking about the past, is that Hagay was especially sensitive to weaving, to aesthetics, to community work and things like that. And this echoes the Hagay in mythology, who handed down these things to men. So Hagay isn’t just about identity, and not just about external expression. Hagay also needs to have the ability to speak, to share, and to pass things on.

SHU LEA:

Coming from the legend, we cannot reduce Hagay to say it's a gender identification. So, by claiming you are Hagay, you actually have to do more, you have to do many sharings with other people. You have to share your knowledge, in terms of the weaving and the hunting. In Hagay Dreaming, we actually do this weaving and hunting, sharing of knowledge. Hagay also entertains people. They become the kind of cameo, in the community. Like every time people see Hagay, everybody's happy, right? This is actually a very important concept. Hagay brings joy to the world, dispatched by the upper spiritual being. Hagay becomes the go between, the messenger for the upper spiritual being. I'm not totally equating Hagay as queer, only just in a way of expression.

SHU LEA:

就是我剛才用Queer，就是好像對國外的人可能要理解說Hagay嚴格上也是Queer。

Just now, I used the word queer—kind of as a way to help to understand that, Hagay is also a form of queer.

DAHU:

因為我覺得聽完Dondon 分享其實，雖然我們兩個在前期，可能我跟Shu Lea 工作比較多，這個劇本。然後跟Dondon 其實沒有太討論這一塊, 但我們兩個一樣在做一樣的事情 for Hagay dreaming 。就是倒頭過來其實蠻有趣是，我們兩個其實一直在做一樣的事情。 Yeah，只是是不同的角度去看待這件事情。我覺得蠻有趣的就是我們其實跟編舞，跟這個導演，跟表演者其實我們三者之中其實是很緊密在這樣子的一個。

DAHU: After hearing Dondon’s sharing, I feel that, even though in the early stages, it was mostly me and Shu lea working together, I didn’t really discuss the script much with Dondon. But we were actually doing the same thing, both working on Hagay Dreaming. Looking back, it’s quite interesting, we’ve both been doing the same thing all along. Yeah, just from different angles, different ways of looking at it. I think it’s really interesting that between us, the choreographer, the director, and the performers, there’s actually a very close connection happening.

SHU LEA:

Yeah, I really appreciate that we have this chance to have this dialogue among us. We are head over heels with our production, with our rehearsals. But this talk actually gives us a time to review how we have been working together. It’s true, after six months, we feel very close to each other. We don't really have to say anything, just ‘Yeah, got it! Don't say anymore!’, that's how we continue to make the piece.

Here we are making this podcast on Monday, March 10th, and our first premiere performance is March 13th. From March 13th to March 15th, three nights of performances. It will be our world premiere at Tate Modern, as part of the Dance Reflections Festival. Of course, we should be kind of nervous. We just came from a long day of rehearsal. We are kind of mumbling or rambling our words, hopefully it's still good. Entertaining for everyone. So we will say goodnight.

ALL:

Bye! Bye! Bye!

MARTIN:

Thank you to Shu Lea, Dondon and Dahu for this conversation. And thank you to Dance Reflections by Van Cleef & Arpels for this collaboration.
For the transcript of this episode and resources mentioned in the conversation, go to rosechoreographicschool.com, the link for this page will also be in the podcast episode description wherever you’re listening right now.
This podcast series is a Rose Choreographic school production. It’s produced and edited by Hester Cant, with concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Bibliography:

Hagay Dreaming - Tate Modern

Elug Art Corner - Dondon Hounwn

More information about Gaya living principle and Truku Tribe