29.01.2025 / þ thorns þ

Episode Nine: Eda Sancakdar Onikinci and Mine Kaplangı

þ thorns þ

In this episode, Eda and Mine's discussion centres around the politics of visibility and non-Western ideas of movement and identity.

This episode is a conversation between Mine Kaplangı and Eda Sancakdar Onikinci. Eda Sancakdar Onikinci is an independent researcher and interdisciplinary artist whose work explores decolonial and queer reimaginings of visual histories and their dominant narratives. Mine Kaplangı is an independent curator and art mediator. Mine is currently working on their ongoing research project, a pirate radio of the Queer/Trans Imaginaries of the Apocalypse in art.
Eda and Mine have known each other for many years and live together in London. In this conversation, they ask each other questions about eachother’s practices. The discussion centres around the politics of visibility and non-Western ideas of movement and identity.

Find out more about Eda and Mine on our People page.

To the Glossary Eda donates (In)visibility and Mine donates Transparency, along with it's Turkish translations . The sounds you will hear in this podcast are detailed in the transcript below.

This series is produced and edited by Hester Cant.

The series is co-curated by Emma McCormick-Goodhart and Martin Hargreaves, with concept and direction by Martin Hargreaves and Izzy Galbraith.

Transcript:

MARTIN

Hello, and welcome to thorns , a podcast where we bring you conversations between artists in relation to concepts of the choreographic . I'm Martin Hargreaves, Head of the Rose Choreographic school, which is an experimental research and pedagogy project. This podcast is part of how we are imagining the school . We are also compiling a glossary of words that artists are using to refer to the choreographic . Every time we invite people to collaborate with us, we also invite them to donate to the glossary, which is hosted on our website. There is a full transcript available for this episode on our website, together with any relevant links to resources mentioned.

This episode is a conversation between Mine Kaplangı and Eda Sancakdar. Mine is an independent curator and art mediator, and Eda is a researcher and artist. They are both from Turkey and are based in London, sharing a house together.

In this conversation, Eda and Mine were in a studio in central London. They have known each other for many years and decided to use this podcast conversation as an opportunity to ask each other questions about their practices. The discussion centres around the politics of visibility and non-Western ideas of movement and identity. The transition sounds you will hear in this episode are field recordings made by Mine. You will also hear an open-source recording by NASA of the sound of the universe, submitted by Eda.

EDA

It's actually interesting that we came up with words. We live together, and occasionally work together. And we've known each other for a long time before both of us moved to London. But for this podcast, we wanted to separately decide on our words. And not, maybe, tell each other, and we were not sure if we should mention. But then, it turned out we decided to share them. And it turned out, very interestingly, attached or related words. And since Mine mentioned their words to me, I've been actually thinking about all the connections. And I still keep thinking about them. So, it's just like a bit raw in my head. It's quite interesting. My word was (in)visibility . But in my PhD research, I've been interested in this concept, let's say for ages, but I use it with (in)-within brackets-visibility, because there is a dual meaning in my head that probably we'll talk today. So, yeah, that's my word, (in)visibility .

MINE

I mean, we also do that a lot. That's what made me choose this word as well. Because of our friendship. Because we know each other too well. Because we keep on collaborating with each other without actually under a name, or a title, or like an expectation. But it just happens, very organically. I'm also like, a curator. But I think, I'm just mostly now, independently just observing many things in arts, and try to make sense of it. Because I think the title is shifting very much, and I find this so interesting. That we are kind of like, in a collective practice. But it just doesn't have a title.

EDA

Yeah.

MINE

There's something like very fundamentally beautiful about that. It's like, also triggered by emotions. Triggered with like, memories. And things you're interested in. Things I'm going through.

EDA

And what's happening in our life! Like, concurrently.

MINE

Yes! Yes. Exactly.

EDA

I think it's just affecting what we do. How we think. How we behave.

MINE

Yeah, exactly.

EDA

But I think this opportunity is also very interesting, because even though we live in the same house, and we do things together, we create things together, and separately at the same time. We don't actually sit and talk about this. Like, at least in this way. Like in a conversational way, we just don’t do that.

MINE

Every time I go to an exhibition, I feel that I have a couple of layers of how to look at art. And one of them is definitely surface and layers, and I think that comes from your PhD thesis. So, there is this…and I wanted to mention her name. I went to this group exhibition at Raven Row, the last one. So, one of the artists is Sophie Podolski. It's actually…it was very unknown. And they figured out her works very late in life. And she actually died by suicide in her very early twenties. And she had like, these drawings, where you can see the bodies, and inside the bodies. And also very, just linear drawings of it. And I think they just, kind of read through her mental state at the time. But I just find it like, so interesting. Because then I just remember what we were talking about skin. And how to see under the skin. And surfaces. And because of all of these, I think I chose the word transparency . Which is very interesting because it's like, then we have to talk about invisibility and transparency. Very excited about it!

Eda and Mine laugh together.

EDA

It's kind of, it feels like a therapy session.

MINE

So, with the transparency, I think because of your research. And because of what we were also seeing and watching together. And the things you were reading in the last year. And I think it's all affected. But I was very also happy to know the etymology of the word. Basically, the ‘trans’ and ‘parere’ comes from medieval Latin. So, the ‘parere’ part is from appear. And the ‘trans’ part is kind of, suggesting the across, beyond, through, on the other side, go beyond. And the etymology is basically from early 15th century. And it says, ‘show light through’. So, there's an element there, that mentions that there is a layer. There is a surface that can be adjusted through levels of transparency. Then the ‘what's behind’ can be visible or known. And I think that part was interesting for me to think about. Think through material, rather than conceptual, because that's where I go usually. Then I go more like, what's the philosophical background of this. And emotions. And everything is just more conceptual. But I think the material part was so interesting.

We talked about the Turkish version of the word, which is also very interesting because it's very problematic, actually. But it doesn't really cover what we're really talking about in Turkish.

EDA

Yeah. It's şeffaf in Turkish .

MINE

Yeah. And also saydam, by the way. I mean, they just say like maybe, şeffaf and saydam sometimes.

EDA

In English use of the word, there is still that kind of connotation. But like, being transparent in terms of, inside and outside is the same. As if also it's the, very much, positive thing that…

MINE

Well…

EDA

Yeah. And in Turkish, the concept doesn't have any depth. Which, kind of was my point throughout the research as well.

MINE

Yeah, yeah! That's why I was just, more like curious about the word transparency .

EDA

Of course.

MINE

And not transparent. Because I think, what can be transparent and transparency? In a way that can be adjusted in surfaces? And I mean, elephant in the room, I would also love to just work on being trans and a parent, through transparency!

Eda laughs.

MINE

I wish I could. I'm not a scholar, but like, if somebody is working on this, you can call me!

I think it's also just a bit like, funny that it is. I mean, [trans]parent is nothing to do with parent, because it's come from a peer. But it's still, I just find it like hilarious. It's like this anecdote as well.

EDA

Yeah. I mean, I think for me transparency, when you mentioned, is interesting because I actually never, never touched on the transparency. So, I was interested more in the genealogy of what is considered invisible and visible. But in a very material sense. So, when we talk about it in visual culture, I'm coming from visual culture background, and I taught in university. And my art practice was always visual with photography, and mostly documentation of movement. And also separate from all of these, I think I've been always interested…And we were talking about it even then. I remember what we both considered invisible in terms of like, invisible things around us. And actually, there was this, we also collaborated, I just realized, on like spirits and ghosts. And this invisibility, the idea of invisibility, it just like, helped me question things. If you're talking about invisibility and visibility, it needs to be directly related with sight.

So photography is all the history of photography and its relation with bodies, which is the part that I'm interested in. If we are talking about invisibility, it's never about materiality. Because if something was considered invisible, then it's out of the scholarship. It can be archives. It can be bodies. It can be the visibility or invisibility of bodies. And directly related with how they are archived. So, it's very much related to the existence of particular bodies. So, I realized at one point that if you were considered invisible, you are missing to that scholarship. You're just like erased, ignored. But then visibility can mean so many things. But so as invisibility.

So, what I was trying to do throughout, is just to find the materiality for the idea of invisibility. Which for me is through the concept, not concept, but like materiality of surface. And of course, the surface can be skin, but also other surfaces, like outfits. Which is something, again, that we kind of converged. In terms of questioning things that the visibility about the invisibility, and visibility of the face. And I think the meaning of things shifted while I was writing my PhD, thinking about surfaces and invisibilities. I think we were again together, when George invited us for the LSA, to the talk. And then I realized also because it's an architectural school, and I was I was talking about my projects, this is connecting it with what you're doing. Then I realized it's also very much related to the space that we live in. And when we say materiality of the invisibility, we can also talk about the traces and marks. And how actually, we think that something invisible could be materialized. But yeah, this is a very complex topic in my mind because it's related with so many other things. One of them being like, what we put on ourselves, to make ourselves visible or invisible. Or if I can't see something, does that mean it's invisible? But if I can feel it, but can't see it, does that mean it's visible or invisible? Or how can we talk about like, invisible characters without talking about materiality? Then, just the surface is very important in that sense.

MINE

Do you also want to mention specifically how you were, basically, doing this research. And what was it focused on? Especially for the photography?

EDA

I was working with archives. I was working with photographic archives. In Europe and America around 19th century, there was this very binary understanding, which is very much ocular centric. So, in order to understand a person’s identity or character, or to give depth to the character, you have to see their face. So, they were actually, the whole visual discourse, especially around photography in 19th century, about all the visual technologies, were, I realized, very much interested in feminine bodies.

In archival material, they say, they mention not woman. Or they don't say female. They say feminine. Particularly because the belief was, now it sounds very pseudoscientific, but it was actually a part of positive science for a long time. They were, they have these like, photography studios in hospitals. But mainly in women's hospitals. Which were mental institutions/reproductive treatments. So, they were just like in one building, with a photography studio. The idea was just feminine bodies, either women or feminine men, have this connection with the invisible. But also whatever. They have something invisible in them that just like, drives them mad. So, the invisibility was almost the same thing with femininity. And in order to make it visible, and less threatening, they were taking photographs of feminine bodies, to understand what's actually wrong with them. It's kind of like, they were using photography to understand kind of, an x-ray for the soul.

And throughout these experiments they used light sensitive material. They mention also these skins as sensitive surfaces. Feminine skin is a sensitive surface. So, like the photographic surface, they can catch and grab whatever is invisible around us. Of course, the 19th century was like, obsessed with invisibility. Because there are like, right radio waves, electricity, and there's just this whole technology.

MINE

Yeah, exactly.

EDA

Also just the world of spirits and everything, is surfaced basically. So, they're just like, a bit all over the place.

Transition sound: Rainy Day at St. Anthony of Padua Church, Istanbul (Istiklal Street, Taksim) – “This recording is from a rainy day in Istanbul (July 2024), on Istiklal Street in Taksim. I was sheltering from the heavy rain inside St. Anthony of Padua Church - The Church of St. Anthony of Padua, better known as ‘Saint-Antoine’ or ‘San Antonio’ (in Turkish, ‘Sent Antuan Kilisesi’)- What struck me was how the sounds from outside seemed to melt into everything inside, creating this sense of layers and layers of city-memory. Istiklal Street has so much history and importance for us; it feels almost like time travel. Hearing these sounds made me think about all the layers of (personal) stories, memories, and lives—beyond what we see, everything that’s happened there, all the people who have lived, left, and are buried there. But also it is a dedication to our friendship with Eda because this is how we connect with each other, we take photos, record sounds from our individual experience and share with each other, knowing we would see what's beneath and beyond mutually.” – Mine Kaplangı

EDA

I was looking at this Western discourse and scholarship and archives. I started thinking about what was happening in non-Western cultures. Mainly because I'm coming from Turkey, Middle Eastern and Ottoman world around that time. How were they thinking about invisibility? What did that mean? Because women had to be covered in front of the camera. So, just, how does it work? If they can't see the person in front of the camera, they consider them invisible. And then it just like, didn't enter any scholarship. It's just like, it's missing.

And so what I did was, through creating, because there is no methodology and there is no language around invisibility to talk about invisible characters, I had to first create one, using non-Western practices and anecdotes. And written descriptions. And whatever I can find. I created this language around it. And then I used my own language, to be able to talk about these characters, because I wanted to talk about so many things. I wanted to talk about a movement, stillness and how they move. How bodily movements were choreographed, And, because they were considered invisible, everything in the end, came to the idea of surface. And because all the Western ideas thought about surface as something to be overcome, something to be removed, to see what's behind. And what is valued, was what's behind the surface. So, if something is considered invisible, you have to remove the surface. If that's a veiled woman, for instance, you have to remove the veil, you have to remove the outfit. So, that you can see what's happening. But for the 19th century, that was not enough. They need to remove the skin. They need to remove the organs. And they had to find what's the source of this thing.

So, while doing that, you just act as if surface is a hollow thing. And it's just something to be removed, an obstacle. But then I realized, if we can change that way of thinking, we can approach these things completely in a different way. And then I said like, surface actually has depth. Not only I did, of course, there are so many people talking about this. But in this context, I just like started to look for the surface of things. Instead of the face of a person. Or the skin of the person. I started talking about surfaces, and their depth, and different surfaces,

MINE

And how to read them.

EDA

And how to read them. Because they are non-Western, some of them coming from Islamic practices where people were actually, while in the West, they were reading faces and bodies and body movements. And like Muybridge, or just like all these influential figures, who were working on the idea between bodies and visual technologies. In order to record them, they actually removed the outfits. They were just like, they need to look at the naked body. But when that's not possible, it's just these bodies are just…

MINE

Yeah.

EDA

Not even ghosts. They don't have any kind of existence.

MINE

They don't exist.

EDA

They don’t exist, yeah. But, around the same time in Ottoman Empire, for instance, there were practices. And even before, like from 16th century, 17th century, there are books where people were reading the folds of layers. Like the fabric, how it's folded. The texture of the fabric. How it moves. And they were talking about it almost in a scientific way. There are books where people read the outer layers of someone. And then, they actually mention outfits as the costume of the soul. So, it's kind of inseparable. It's a very different way of engaging with what you think is visible and invisible. I think it changes everything around the idea of invisibility, when you try to find a materiality of the invisibility, because now you have to talk about the surfaces. And surfaces do have depth, and conceptual, and material depth. And I think it's very important to talk about that.

MINE

Yeah, of course. That is kind of like affects everything, like how we look at films and how we look at artworks, especially video arts.

EDA

Yeah, exactly!

MINE

And I was just remembering when you first told me your research. And I was just, of course, my mind works like, how can I make this accessible to people?Because I think this is a theory that you can't just take it and apply it. I think people need to understand. So, I had this vision that if a Western institution would take a photograph, with a covered or a veiled woman, and try to adjust the transparency of the fabric. They would like dim it so they can see what's behind it. And then they would try to show the skin, to understand her. And in your theory, even if we do that, we see the fabric.

EDA

Yeah.

MINE

So, it doesn't… there's no… you can't just adjust it! So, you have to learn how to read the fabric. And then people would just look at things in other ways. Because the more… For example, I remember there was a family photo of, I think it was like an Ottoman, the archive you were working, you showed me a family photo. They were outside, and they just made outfits for themselves. They were, they were like, mocking also. So then, if you understand what they're mocking with… so if they, if you understand how they position themselves with the fabric, and how they actually curated this whole photograph, it means completely something else. Rather than if you just take this photograph, give it to someone who doesn't know anything about, this history. They would just think that “Oh. So, people live like this”, and you know, it's just like, it really changed a lot of things for me. To also look at art pieces through this lens.

EDA

So, I think it's still a very valid argument. And that actually kind of confuses me, because it touches upon so many different disciplines. Which is quite a puzzling thing for me, because you can think about this hierarchy between surface and depth in so many levels. They did actually try that in the West that, during that time in the 19th century. There were practices of photographing thoughts, for instance. Or just movements. Not a moving object, just the movement itself. And they were setting up a camera. And then, in the end, on the light sensitive surface, that is the papers, they would see things that were not visible to the naked eye. Which would be then, immediately considered the evidence of their existence. So, if it's… In the end, it comes down to if it's not visible it doesn't exist. It doesn’t exist to the positive sciences. And it kind of grew up from there. And nothing much changed today. I think we just, if we see some…

I mean in my thesis, the subject was, in the end, actually a character called Turkish Lady. And because she's always photographed with a veil on, she's missing, because she's not visible in this Western sense. They were obsessed with it. All the travelogues, also like scientific, almost kind of ethnographic, let's say books, around that time, has this chapter called Turkish Lady. And they talk about, like, ‘Why can't we see this person? What's behind that fabric? Is it a man? Is it a woman? Is it just like completely naked? Is it ugly? Is it beautiful?’ There are all these arguments. And then of course drawings of her naked body. And sometimes they draw it, in just like, in another gender, but like, ‘We are being tricked, East is just like this tricky and not seen and elusive and invisible’.

MINE

That sounds very colonial.

Eda laughs.

MINE

So, not only they're feeling like outsiders, because they don't know what's inside. But they're also making it, like just defining it, invisible and doesn't exist. Like, it's just incredible.

EDA

Yeah Exactly! But then, what you said, then transparency comes into play. Because then they say like, ‘if we put a transparent veil, or just a fabric that is see through’-

MINE

-they would feel safe.

EDA

‘If it were used, but indoors’. There are so many layers that they couldn't pass to be honest.

MINE

Yeah, of course.

EDA

Were there woman's quarters? Harem? And they need to pass that. And there were so many male travellers who were actually dressed up, like veiled, in order to be able to get through those walls. And in the end, just to like, see what's inside. But anyway, because they couldn't see, it became a fantasy. It is almost like they don't exist. Or if they do exist, they do exist in a way that is fundamentally against modernism/positive science/progress. And yeah, everything was just kind of related to this invisibility.

While on the other side, they were in the Ottoman Empire. They were also trying to describe themselves visually. And they found different methods of describing themselves. But in the end today, when I look at it, that just like scholarship. That's why I did my research on this, because that scholarship doesn't exist. No one actually talks about it, because it's just like, it didn't stay in the 19th century. Now we don't have tools to talk about it. Like, if you see, I don't know, a family photograph, or just like a couple of people completely veiled, or just like covered themselves in one way or another, it doesn't have to be a cultural or religious way of expression. Not only it is forbidden in so many levels, in so many places, it can't be a part of the discourse. It can't be a part of the like, ‘why would you have a photograph if you, if your face is not visible?’. Still, it's a grey area.

MINE

Yeah, of course.

EDA

Still, we don't have a language around this.

Transition Sounds: Dayrave, London (Room Transitions) – “This recording captures the immersive, bodily experience of a Sunday day rave in London where I was moving in between rooms, where sound was layering and becoming transparent. The Sunday rave, sometimes referred to as "Sunday mass" within the community, are about collective movement and a shared experience of sound that almost feels like a physical merging. I wanted to focus on the experience itself rather than a specific venue, as these events happen across London.” - Mine Kaplangı

MINE

The way you're, kind of like, proposing this tool, cannot be achieved by advanced technologies. Because you're not really talking about scanning people in between art and philosophy, kind of like, visual culture and media. But you were always interested in those areas, that were like, in between as well. Which is, I think, also like impacting a lot of other things that you're doing. For example, I think what you're recently…you were just saying, that you started this project about how to do photographic, or video, or movement documentation of performance artists, who move differently. And we were just talking about like, of course, maybe not able bodies. Or maybe bodies that are just wanted to be represented differently. And have a different sense of time and space, because of their practice. And they don't want traditional or contemporary documentation for their work. But that way of documenting these, were exactly what you mentioned, this like, in between trying to figure out how to make that visible, and also just make it archival, in a sense. Which is, I think, it's embedded to your practice.

EDA

Yeah, because then if I think, I mean, historically trying to document what is not visible, is very much, directly related to stillness and movement as well. I think it's an area that has potential. Because when you move, your outfit moves as well. And they were, in the archival, like more like ethnographic archives, geographic archives. If they were to document a veiled woman, for instance, they were doing it while they're moving. So that they can at least just like, talk about these falls, and changing shapes of the fabric.

And there are people, actually, one person. Clérambault is his name, is a French psychiatrist. But also, was obsessed with Islamic Veil. And he was found dead, surrounded by thousands of photographs of veiled women. He's the person also who came up with the erotomania. The terms and just like, silk fetish and fabric fetish around 19th century. Of women's fetishes with surfaces, and how they are sexually attracted to touching certain fabrics. His whole analysis of invisibility, is through the movement, of the fabric, of the veil, of the Islamic veil. And there are people like Loie Fuller who made movement in a different way, visible, through using fabrics.

But more than that, I think when you talk about invisibility, and its relation to visual technologies, both in artistic and also historical ways, I think, yeah, there are certain areas like outfits, fashion, or movement and stillness, and how these are in play. And of course, one thing that I don't actually mention, but think about, think a lot about, is the sound. Silence and sound. And, all of these just like, in between areas come into play when you try to talk about this, like materiality of invisibility. Because there are so many potential surfaces, visible or invisible, that actually makes this work with the use of visual technologies. And yes, I was also practicing documenting artist, and mainly live art performers. And I used mainly photography. But, was also thinking if it actually makes sense to use still image to create an archive of these movements. Which are very affirmative. With this project that you mentioned, that I was thinking of just like, how to document, if a person has issues around invisibility for instance. Which I know many people do. Or if they have issues with mobility. How can we use actually visual technologies to document these grey areas? So that it's a different, at least, language that can just invite these issues into the conversation. Because we keep like, creating archives all the time. So, I think it's important to talk about ethics of archive. Or just the different methods of creating an archive.

MINE

No, but I mean, it's also good, because this is something that you practice your own theory as well as a ‘yeah, that's what I was interested in’.

EDA

Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

MINE

Because when I work with artists that, I just keep on hearing that they just really want to expand that area as well. Experiencing the same room and the space, and the time, and the sound in a performance art, is completely different than watching a documentation of it. But it's also like, then what type of a documentation we want as an archive, shouldn't be decided by the institutions anymore. But should be decided by the artist, and their practice. And I think this is just some of the things that we can actually embed into the practical side of it, and then try and…it's very exciting field also to see.

And the other thing, because you mentioned the sound, I think I also want to say, that one of the reasons that I chose transparency also to talk with you, was because the more I think about the adjustment of it, and how it becomes a layer, and it’s there, so it’s a surface. Because if something is transparent, we have to acknowledge that that's just one of the layers. And it's just like, if you adjust the transparency of that layer, then you somehow have to face what's behind. And what's beyond.

And we recently had this screening program with carefuffle collective. It's actually inspired by Karen Barad, which we can also mention maybe. But it was more like queer quantum. And one of the artists, Bassam Al-Sabah’s work, Dissolving Beyond the Worm Moon. That was, like when I watched the video, it's exactly the same thing that just came to my mind. It's like, how incredible that they just managed to embody a material body, by making it transparent. And loosened all the time, constantly in transformation. So, that was like, also something that I just thought was incredible to refer to Karen Barad’s theory. But also, that theory that you're talking about. So, to see the movement in a different way, that maybe cannot be-

EDA

-stopped.

MINE

Yes exactly! So then, what if the movement doesn't have a stop. Or like, an endpoint. What if it's just always in constant flux, and then the layer becomes the part of the no. They cannot be separable anymore. So it's like, all of these years of understanding that everything has to be distinctively understood, just kind of dissolves. And now we just have to understand at once.

EDA

Mm-Hmm. I mean it's all in our language. And it was in English, as well. Like, even saying ‘I see’ to understand something, to just like, we know that's nothing new.

MINE

Mm-Hmm.

EDA

That is all very hierarchical. In terms of, you have to see in order to know. You need to see, and stop, in order to archive. And these are just like, things that don't work anymore. Or it just shouldn't be the only way of doing things. Because it's just, as you said, if you're talking about different discourses around categorizations, or against categorizations, against this type of method of understanding things, that put them into small boxes, and just like, separate them from each other. And that happens with just stopping the movement. Analysing it. Understanding what's behind the surface of things. And just like, peeling the layers one by one. I think it's more complex. There needs to be other languages, at least.

MINE

Another layer that I wanted to mention, that I kind of like, put upon you, unfortunately, in the last two years was the-

EDA

-no! I'm very much happy about it. I’m really happy about it. No, definitely!

MINE

Um, it just comes from like, Oxana Timofeeva's article. I think it was the… I met her at a talk in Istanbul a couple of years ago. But then she published this article called Apocalypse is Always Now. And then, since then, I was also thinking about like, how she describes apocalypse. And it's basically, she just, if I summarise the entire thing, basically she says it's not in a very…an end point, where a capitalist system will just destroy everything in one day. But it's like the constant flux of apocalypses, everywhere, all the time, that we live in. And we're all always feeling and living, at the end of the world. And it's never going to end basically. And so, through that, there’s so many incredible conversations about it. And I kind of just like, find it so helpful for me to understand. And try to live in the world in the last couple of years. Because it was also living with you and living in that house. It's just kind of helped me going through many things as well, in theory and practice at the same time.

And I think this is one of the things, that’s why I chose, for example, the sound for this podcast. Because I just realized, that thanks to these things we are curious about, and on top of that now, I am just very vocal about transitioning, and apocalypse, and all of these like keywords, let's say, to talk with people. Somehow it just like, makes things that are invisible, more visible. In our relationships. I'm very much comfortable with talking about that with people. And which was like, very difficult. Except the COVID time. Like, in COVID time everybody was doing it. But nowadays, it is like almost a, you know, invisible topic. And, it just reminded me of like, yeah, this is one of the layers now, that we're going through as well. And I know that you read about it a lot, and I listened a lot. And I just have this like, also now a second lens to look at things. And I just like, pick things that are related with apocalypse.

So, when I was in Istanbul, basically the last time I visited, we went to the Taksim street, which is like, the main street. And we spent so many of our years there. And it's kind of, a special place for us. There was this old church, and then on the entrance, you can see the people are just like rushing in and out. And then there were like, some candle. And I just recorded the sound where people were talking about that. But you can't really hear them. But you can hear more about the candles. And then I thought about that road in Taksim and Istanbul. And our past similar to that experience as well. That there’s always this background noise that I'm also like, lacking in London. That just reminds you of so many things that you know. The construction, and then the people screaming. It doesn't have to be negative also, it's part of it. Like, I also miss that kind of vibrant background noise.

But, it reminded me that we are always living in apocalypse. And it doesn't have layers comes and go. It's just really, it was always there. Also for us, that it's like, very natural for me, that I'm now fallen to this. But of course, when we talk about it, that the sound that you wanted to choose, also is exactly the missing part of it what you are mentioning in your theory, so maybe you can also…

EDA

Yeah, I was actually looking for peace of mind.

Eda laughs.

EDA

Like I was thinking about, sound is something very interesting for me because I'm thinking about, and talking about a lot of things, that are visual or not visual. But in the sense that, I'm still within the visual culture. So actually, sound is something I thought, was always in relation to that. I think sound is something that is making the…I think it's the closest feeling…
With a certain sound, I feel like I came closest, sometimes, to feeling what is invisible materially. Or just physically, let's say. And it is always just, I'm looking not for a sound, but a kind of silence, more than maybe a sound. So, I was thinking what silence sounds like for me. Because also like, in my head, it’s always like 60 different people talking.

Eda and Mine laugh.

MINE

I think for me, saying that to me, is also important. Because I think it probably means, and feels completely different to everyone else.

EDA

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MINE

It is also, like I have to say, that it is also related with how you sleep. Your ADHD, you know. Like, your, just like, so many different aspects of yourself, your relation to silence then.

EDA

Yeah, definitely! And I just reached a point where actually people, I was listening what they recorded as the silence.

MINE

Mm-hmm. Who recorded that silence?

EDA

I was just like, looking at sound banks.

MINE

Oh, okay.

EDA

And again, I just found that one sound, that very much impacted me the last year. Which was NASA's open-source recording of universe. Which is such an incredible sound, that made me think of everything at once again.

Mine laughs.

EDA

So, I'm going to try to explain.

Transition sounds: Cosmic Harmonies – Sonification’s from NASA Telescopes – Stephan’s Quintet. https://youtu.be/j-W5CDGGq50 (https://teams.microsoft.com/l/message/48:notes/1738149332537?context=%7B%22contextType%22%3A%22chat%22%7D)

EDA

Um, since we've been talking about apocalypse mostly. Thanks to you a lot. Which no, I mean, it's kind of like talking about death. Or not being able to talk about that, because it's just all around us all the time. Every single day. And we just think about it. We were thinking about this before moving to the UK. Because of other things. Because it was so close physically to us. But also like, now itself is more visually than physically. But we're just like, bombarded with these images, and we just like, look for it. There is this like, an idea of it again, like invisible around us. And I had just this feeling to materialize it into something.

I thought about H. G. Well's Time Machine, and how I felt when I was reading the last pages of it. It's been a while, but the feeling is just like, very vivid for me. Because he just like, in the end, just put some numbers on the machine, and kind of reaches the end of the world. But when he says end of the world, it’s like the end of humanity, not the world, but end of humanity. And then there's just like nothing. Now he ends up, he just like, goes out of the machine. And then is in this part of nature. There's no light, so he can't actually see what's around him. But also, he can't hear anything that is… Also he's just like, he lives in this industrial revolution, and just everything is a loudness, and just machines. I can imagine his imagination of silence!So, he is very detailed.

Mine laughs.

EDA

He explains this silence in such a vivid way.Also, such a visual way about invisibility. Like darkness, not invisibility. But like, he talks about this pitch darkness. In silence. And it's so peaceful. But he's basically talking about like, end of the civilization, or just like human culture or whatever. He's trying to handle that silence and invisibility. When I read that, it's just like, I think he intended that as well. I don't know, but it was so peaceful to have that. So, I think it is very much related to sound. I know, but I don't think about it that much. But it is quite…it was a really interesting exercise for me to think about the sound. Because it's just like, there are so many other things. Also with this universe sound, they talk about the things that I don't know technically, but basically they visualized that sound, and trying to understand how it works.

MINE

When you actually mentioned the sound at H. G. Wells book, I remember two movies. One of them was Arrival, and the sound of the aliens. Like, on the other side of the window. Basically, where the aliens and very tentacle. And we really like this movie because of the creatures. But I think it's because of when, whenever you are on that side, it's like they made the sound design so good, that it kind of dims. And it's very quiet. And they only have echoes when they communicate with each other. I thought about this, and the movie we watched together with Tilda Swinton, Memoria. So, Memoria, you have this main character of the movie, which is a sound professor. She goes to Columbia, and then she hears this sound out in nature. And she kind of like, wants to repeat it. So, they have to go into a studio and try to create a sound. But the sound is not from this earth. So, it comes from another planet or like, another universe. So, it's like, then we're also a bit limited with the things that we can do with our understanding of sound. Especially if it comes from somewhere else. So-

EDA

-Yeah, I remember also, that she is trying to describe the sound visually, in order to-

MINE

-yes, to the sound engineer!

EDA

To the sound engineer, to recreate the sound. And also, we hear that sound, because it's in her mind. And the audience actually, kind of hears the sound. And then you try to visualize it, and that sound is just like, impossible to visualize. That's why the sound of universe, actually really…It just shook me. Because it's just, it's something that just vibrates with organs.

MINE

Yeah! Of course.

EDA

And it sounds so materially there. But you can't actually see it. But like, you can feel it with your organs basically, in your organs. I think it's an incredible way to talk about the materiality of the invisibility as well.

MINE

Yeah of course! Even if you don't hear it, you can just feel it.

EDA

Yeah.

MINE

It's like a material thing suddenly.

EDA

Yeah. Also it’s I think, interesting that in the 19th century, they thought about the end of the world as silence and invisibility. While I think we're already going through apocalypse, and it's just like happening, which I do believe. It's not silent at all. It's just, it's not, not invisible. It's just everywhere at the same time. Loud and too visible, maybe.

MINE

Yeah, of course. I mean, I was also going to mention this text that Martin O'Brien wrote. Because I'm sure he'll just publish it somewhere so you can read it. But it was one of the last performances. It's called An Ambulance to the Future (The Second Chance). I think it was in South Bank. So, basically there was a part in the story, where Martin O'Brien mentions that this cursed life by debt, has to live forever. So, at one point, the time actually continues, but everything else dissolves. So, the body, the cursed body, has to go through this. So, then he has a part, where he just describes it as, ‘you're in the mud and like, disgusting smug, and you just have to be stuck there, and then hear this like, eternally’. And it was like, so interesting because it's also a description of an eternal sound of the end. But because you're physically doomed to stay on this earth, there is something that we can never experience. But if the body is still here, then you're also like, doomed with the the sound of everything else, basically. And that was just also very similar to the H. G. Wells feeling. That's why it's more like, slimy and disgusting in Martin's part. Very similar.

Mine laughs.

EDA

I mean, slimy doesn't have to be disgusting.

Eda laughs.

MINE

Yeah, no, it was very disgusting. No, I mean, it's not disgusting in the sense…But I think how it was just very like, grotesque in a way that it was just, it's not bodily fluids. It's like the bin of the earth.

EDA

Mm.

MINE

Everything was just like, you know, like death and-

EDA

-leftovers.

MINE

Leftovers. And then you just be part of it. But you just don't wanna be part of it. But you're part of it. And it's actually just a very good description of nowadays. It's really not the end of the world. But it's the sound aspect, that how he described it, was really interesting. Because it's so difficult, that when you're like, you're still alive, but your body dissolved and you still hear, but like, what do you hear? It’s like, it can’t be explained. Because it's not something that you-

EDA

-through your ears.

MINE

Yes, exactly. To your experience. So, it's like the eternal life that comes with that, you know, like eternal ending. And it was very, very interesting. But I hope we can find the entire text and you can read it.

EDA

I think it's difficult. It's getting more difficult to, also artistically but in different ways, it doesn't have to be like considered artistic, I don't know, to express yourself without actually falling into these binary explanations of art. What is discernible in terms of visibility, invisibility, movement, stillness, sounds and silence? And these are just like, so still. Whatever we do, I think. When we try to talk about it, they are still such binary categories. And I think it makes things very much different. Difficult because we are living in a time that is almost impossible to express yourself. Or what you're feeling like, physically or mentally. Or just like, I don't know if that even matters, the difference. But using these categories, and these words and yeah.

When you're talking about this like slimy existence, I thought of going through the archives. That there was this description of time and movement, in Western travelogues. That they call it Eastern time.Which is used to define the difference between Western and Eastern ideas of time. And so, Western time, you have a spare time. But in order to have a spare time, you need to have a categorized understanding of scheduled time, so that you can be productive. Uh, and then you can have a break, basically. Then just like, then it makes sense. And they say, when we went to the Ottoman Empire, Middle East, different parts of Middle East. That was just a huge empire. They say, we realize their understanding of time is just completely different, in a very negative way. Very colonial and condescending way, as well. Of course. But they explain, so they just sit and look at the abyss.

Eda and Mine laugh.

EDA

And don't do anything. Like they just… And it's called keyif And we use it in Turkish, this word. Because they can't find, they couldn't find the English word for this, they use the Turkish word, which is also coming from Arabic, I think. And they kif, kayf, keyif. And the keyif actually is coming from keif. Keif is something that you just like, consume and just get high basically. It's just, it's having, enjoying your free time. It's considered something that is, very much, unnecessary if you're not doing something productive with your time. But they also say, movement is also very weird. Especially women-

MINE

Especially women…

EDA

Especially women who were already like, covered in these fabrics. And you can't see what they're doing in there. But they say, ‘They're like molluscs. They are, as if they don't have their spine.’

MINE

Mmm! Yes, I remember.

EDA

‘Because their movement is always horizontal.’ They are just like, ‘You don't understand, because of the surfaces they covered themselves with. You don't understand where their body finishes and starts. ‘They're just like these, half-fabric-half-skin creatures, that don't have spine. So, that's why they can't stand straight.’ They go…yeah.

And also, I think it's related with dance as well. And movements in that sense. Because they also say, whereas in Western cultures, they say, ‘In order to understand their movements, you need to look at their dance styles’. So, they talk about belly dancing. And they say like, ‘It's so horizontal, everything is related with like lower half of your body. And so many moments that are happening in pelvic area’, which has like, of course, all other connotations. And it goes so many different ways. But in terms of movement, they say like, they just like say, ‘These women move like molluscs, as if there's nothing left in them. They're just like, lacking any depth. Any soul and spine.’ Because with ballet, for instance, it's an upward movement. And it shows the modern ideals. And Western ideals, so because it's like up, up, up. But with the Eastern movement, like Eastern time, it's so not categorised. Not just like, ‘You don't know what's happening, even the moment is has a lack of choreography, or just like aim. There's no aim in that moment.’ They say like, ‘They're just these blobs moving from the…rolling actually, from one side to another. It's not a productive movement. The moment doesn't have purpose. It's just like, it's just moments for a moment's sake’.

MINE

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't even have to justify itself, but it's related with so many things that comes afterwards. Because then the more you have the spine, and the direct posture with your productivity, and how it presents yourself, and how you-

EDA

-and control!

MINE

Yeah, exactly, control. Which is so funny, because keyif is like literally, the fundamental part of philosophical thought. It is the philosophy. That's when you think you need time, and you have to like, lay down. And you have to just like, you know, you don't have to be productive. That's productivity.

EDA

Yeah. But it is redefined, I think, you know, in Western cultures or theory around that time. That' your movements needs to…they are…they should be organised. They have a purpose. Your body needs a purpose. And it's all, it's so many.

MINE

Yeah, so many horrible…yeah, yeah. I know.

EDA

I know.

MINE

Another podcast! That we will talk about this!

Mine laughs.

EDA

But it's also just like, yeah, it is actually very much related with these, all-surface relationships. And I think this surface tension is an important issue.

MINE

Very!

EDA

No one is listening to you.

MINE

No one is listening! Hear us out!

Eda and Mine laugh together.

MINE

Okay, I want to just read this Karen Barad quote.

EDA

Please do. It's so beautiful.

MINE

So basically, she's saying it is once again possible to acknowledge nature, the body, and the materiality in the fullness of their becoming without resorting the optics of transparency or opacity, the geometrics of absolute exteriority or interiority. and the theorization of a human as either pure cause or pure effect, while at the same time remaining resolutely accountable for the role we play in the intertwined practices of knowing and becoming.

Thank you, Karen.

MARTIN

Thank you, Mine and Eda. It was a pleasure to be invited into your friendship and to hear how you inspire each other's work. For the transcript of this episode and resources mentioned in the conversation, go to www.rosechoreographicschool.com. The link for this page will also be in the podcast episode description wherever you're listening right now.

This podcast is a Rose Choreographic school production. It's produced and edited by Hester Cant and co-curated by Emma McCormick-Goodheart and Martin Hargreaves, with additional concept and direction by Izzy Galbraith. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.

RESOURCES:

People:

Eadweard Muybridge - Wikipedia

Gaëtan Gatian de Clérambault - Wikipedia

Karen Barad - Wikipedia

Loie Fuller - Wikipedia

Sophie Podolski - Wikipedia

Films:

Memoria (2021 film) - Wikipedia

Arrival (film) - Wikipedia

Books and Writings:

Karen Barad (quote) - Posthumanist Performativity: Toward an Understanding of How Matter Comes to Matter